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-   Fire-Belly & Sword-Tail Newts (Cynops & Hypselotriton) (https://www.caudata.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=33)
-   -   The C. chenggongensis thread again (I) (https://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=41245)

jesper 8th October 2004 11:55

Just saw your that you have got some newts from Angus!
First off, congrats to the eggs you lucky bastardhttp://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/biggrin.gif!!!
Have you got both C.cyanurus references and what Angus believes to be C.chengongensis?
I assume both from what you said and the pics that the egglayer is a reference c.cyanurus, is this correct?

Nate - Have you gotten any more info out of the original description?

nate 8th October 2004 16:14

Actually, the info in the original description is the same as in "Rare and Economic Amphibians" (which tim already posted for all to read), as I suspected it was.

TJ 9th October 2004 08:40

Hi Jesper. I'd been meaning to get some pictures up earlier of what was described as chenngongensis, but have been so busy and have also been having problems with lighting. But seeing as the natives are restless, I'll post some preliminary ones here http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24168.jpg

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24169.jpg

No belly pics yet. Those will be forthcoming.

Whatever they are, they're fantastic http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/biggrin.gif

I still have only the one egg, and it's from the cyanurus, of which I received just one type in addition to the "chenggongensus"

(Message edited by TJ on October 09, 2004)

jesper 9th October 2004 09:00

The Natives are indeed restless!
Looks great! *comparing*

benjamin 9th October 2004 09:00

The middle one appears to have the row of spots mentioned in the original description.

jesper 9th October 2004 10:00

Oh yeah? I see one spot above the rear leg, I have seen that in several cyaunurus yunnanensis too.

TJ 9th October 2004 11:41

What type of spots are "chenggongensis" supposed to have anyway? Color? Size?

If one is looking for rows of spots, then one might be disappointed. I'm just appreciating them for what(ever) they are.
And I'll tell you one thing they are: real clowns http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24195.jpg

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24196.jpg

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24197.jpg

TJ 9th October 2004 11:55

I have a total of three here. Most of the shots will likely be of the same one as it has constantly hogging the front glass.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24200.jpg

paul 9th October 2004 12:02

Wow! Tim, that are fantastic newts!
Paul

benjamin 9th October 2004 12:02

Cute little fellows. Is Angus going to get them back, or are you going to send them to some one else, or are they yours to keep them indefinately. Do you have any Idea of what genders they are, I can't quite place it but there seems to be something that sets them apart from cyanarus. If not a new species, perhaps a new sub species.

TJ 9th October 2004 12:12

They come in three different shades:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24203.jpg

TJ 9th October 2004 12:17

Perhaps I'll zero in on some body parts. Here's a head close-up:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/24206.jpg

william 9th October 2004 12:27

didn't know that they would come in all those colours.

but congrats on getting them in the first place they look really great.

but don't you think the newt in the second pic has a lot of blue on the tail, it seems to be a mix of cyanurus and chenggongensis hummm...

and the newt in the third pic has a blue spot on it's foot is that just some trick of the light or is it really there?

(Message edited by will_j on October 09, 2004)

jesper 9th October 2004 13:06

"Along the sides of the body, from shoulder to tail-base, there is a row of orange-yellow spots, sometimes orange-red, the size and number of which vary from 1-10 or more."

benjamin 9th October 2004 13:09

Well, then one spot's enough.

jesper 9th October 2004 13:15

LOL Ben, loads of cyanurus yunnanensis have one spot too.

TJ 9th October 2004 13:15

Hi Benjamin & Paul. They are indeed cute. No, they aren't on loan. I haven't got around to ascertaining genders (or taking belly shots) yet, but I will. I do have a three-day weekend!

About sensing that something sets them apart from C. cyanurus, At this point, I really can't say much myself in that regard, being new to C. cyanurus and all. Call me a cop-out, but I see myself as just in charge of providing the raw material for discussion http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/lol.gif I'm twiddling my thumbs waiting to see what Nate and others (Angus especially if he opts to join in) have to say.

As to whether they could be a new species or new subspecies, I was just saying to Jesper in chat that I wonder why we never hear about "races" when it comes to C. cyanurus or even C. orientalis. C.pyrrhogaster is regarded as having a number of races, but these aren't referred to as subspecies. What's the difference between a subspecies and a race? A subspecies is obviously more differentiated than a race, but where is the line drawn and on the basis of what?

Hi William. Thanks! I'm in a great mood this weekend, as you can imagine. I was greatly relieved that they all arrived safely. The weather here sure cooperated (nice n' cool). As for the newt in the second pic, well, I was guessing the tail coloration might have something to do with it being a male, but I haven't ascertained its gender yet. You mean the blue on foot of the hind leg? That's no trick of light. I'll get a close-up shot for you http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/wink.gif

Jesper, thanks for that clarification! But I'd still like to know the size of these spots that are talked about...

(Message edited by TJ on October 09, 2004)

TJ 9th October 2004 13:26

Strike what I said about having three different color variations. Two are now equally as light-colored. Amazing!

jesper 9th October 2004 13:33

The above quote was from Rare and Economic Amphibians of China that, according to Nate who has the original description of chenggongensis, was taken directly from the original description.

To quote Paul Bachhausen:
"This species(chenggongensis) differs from Cynops cyanurus (Liu, Hu & Yang) in that,
1) it is longer than the latter, its total lengths of female and male
being 97 mm, and 86 mm. respectively;
2) the skin is rather smooth;
3) the vertebral ridge is not prominent;
4) the tail of the female has conspicuous spots;
5) when living, most of them have, on each side, a row of orange-yellow spots, appearing from the shoulder to the base of the tail."

Quoting Nate(about the Paul quote above):
"Well Ira, those of us keeping cyanurus know all of those traits (except the stripe) can be found in cyanurus as well. They are highly variable."


The conclusions are simple:
1.Look for a dorsolateral line of spots(see above quote"
2.Compare to known specimens of cyanurus yunnanensis and cyanurus cyanurus.

To compare:
Can someone help identifying the newt Tim got labeled as Cyanurus? Can we be 100% that it is a cyanurus? We do need clearly identified cyanurus controls.
We have some photos of yunnanensis here that can be used to compare assuming they are identified correctly.

jesper 9th October 2004 13:38

Tim to know more about the size of those spots you will probably have to go and collect your own specimens in China since not even the original description includes that!http://www.caudata.org/forum/clipart/biggrin.gif


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