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Taxonomy in Necturus, Sirenidae

ryan

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Today I got a book called Guide And Reference to the Amphibians of Eastern And Central North America (North of Mexico) (great book!!!). copyright: 2006

I was looking through it and saw that there is something called the Eastern Gulf Coast Waterdog Necturus species cf beyeri. I had heard something about it but didn't think much of it. This book says its a currently undescribed species and more info on it would be greatly appreciated.

Now for the Siren. This book lists the Siren intermedia texana as a valid species not a subspecies. Its called the Texas siren S. texana. More info on this would be appreciated as well. keep in mind the copyright date is 2006 so it is pretty up to date. Thanks
 
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jennifer

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Does the book say what person or organization wrote/compiled it?
 

ryan

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Sorry stupid me i forgot. The 2 authors are R. D. Bartlett and Patricia Pope Bartlett.
 

ryan

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Yes I have seen them thanks anyway, looks like N. beyeri is a species complex to me.
 
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jennifer

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The Bartletts have done quite a bit of exploration of these species and have opinions about how the taxonomy should be. I've heard some of Dick's opinions regarding waterdogs, but I don't know enough to have an opinion on the validity of their classification. You can either consider their taxonomic classification to be (a) non-mainstream, or (b) ahead of its time!

Another place that you can look for taxonomy of N. American species is CNAH:
http://www.cnah.org/
They sometimes have some differences from AmphibiaWeb.

(Message edited by jennewt on March 06, 2007)
 
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kaysie

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Ryan, the way things are going in classification right now (especially with herps), what with all the DNA testing, and the rethinking of 'species' and 'subspecies', etc., you'll probably never get a definite answer. It's pretty dynamic right now. My usual approach is find one classification that at least some people agree on and go with that (unless that doesn't make any sense, in which case I pick something else).
 

ryan

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I guess i'll just stick with what it says in the book for now. I just really enjoy stuff like that and it seems like all of my favorite animals have very confusing taxonomy like my second favorite group of animals the oarfish (Regalecidae). Man what a mess they are!
crazy.gif


Thanks again.
happy.gif
 

ryan

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I did some research and in the older book Salamanders of the U.S. and Canada by Petranka (I bet many of you guys own copy) and saw that the 2 pictures that it has of N. alabamensis are from Florida, and according to the book I talked about before: Guide And Reference to the Amphibians of Eastern And Central North America (North of Mexico), the only necturus from florida is the Necturus cf species beyeri. Same thing on the CNAH, a pic of N. alabamensis from Florida.
 
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jean

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Actually, I think like you, and in my book "Les Urodèles du Monde", I treated the small range striped form from Alabama as N. alabamensis, et talked about 3 possible other species in the complex: N. cf alabamensis, N. beyeri and N. cf beyeri with allopatric distributions.
 
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jean

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One of these 3 species should receive the old name N. lodingi, I think described from the vicinity of Mobile.
 

ryan

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Thats what I think, if one of the species got N. lodingi then this very confusing family would be a little easier to understand.

I haven't heard of N. cf alabamensis and would love to find out more. Also Jean do you treat N. beyeri as a valid species.
 
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jean

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Yes, the one which is distributed west, to Texas. I think N. cf alabamensis might be lodingi. N. cf beyeri might be the one distributed east, to Northern Florida. But that is just an option.
 

ryan

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Only if all scientists agreed with us.
happy.gif
Imagine if they just made all the species ssp. of maculosus
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a monotypic genus talk about organized.
 
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pierson

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What will be called N. lodingi is the Eastern-most distributed of the beyeri complex. Their range is SW Georgia, NW Florida, S. Alabama, and SE Mississippi.

The name N. alabamensis is now restricted to striped populations in the Black Warrior River system of northern Alabama.

N. beyeri is everything else along the Gulf Coast but will probably be split as more genetic data is collected.
 
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pierson

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Oh yeah...Siren.

Siren are a very poorly understood group but ongoing research by Paul Moler suggests that there are several species that fall under the umbrella of "S. intermedia" and several others that are called "S. lacertina". Until his work is finally published, I'm afraid we won't know exactly where and how they'll be split up. I'm fairly confident that S. texana will be elevated to species status.
 
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pierson

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Evidence for recognizing N. lodingi as distinct from puntatus or beyeri is weak (that's why it isn't recognized) and will rely on genetic data to resolve the conflict. Right now all anyone knows is that they aren't alabamensis and they aren't beyeri. Unfortunately, I don't know who is working on them or when it will be published. I'll look into it.
 
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