Two new Pachytriton species from China

Two new Pachytriton species have just been described, using morphological and genetic data. The new species are called P. feii and P. moi.

Article attached

C

I see they completely changed the Pachytriton taxonomy... What's Pachytriton inexpectatus, and why there is written that Pachytriton labiatus was moved to Paramesotriton?!
Somebody please explain?

edit: Okay, i looked to google... so labiatus is invalid and newts known as labiatus are now inexpectatus.

Another recent paper talks about this - see this thread http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-.../76377-new-taxonomic-changes-pachytriton.html

C

Yahilles said:

edit: Okay, i looked to google... so labiatus is invalid and newts known as labiatus are now inexpectatus.

Click to expand...

Not quite. labiatus is valid...it's just not a Pachytriton - the name was applied to animals which are actually Paramesotriton ermizhaoi [aka Pachytriton C]. Consequently, the older name must be applied to the "new" animals known as Pac. C and Par. ermizhaoi, as Paramesotriton labiatus. That leaves the animals long known; incorrectly, as Pachytriton labiatus, without a name. The authors correct these problems by redescribing the same species using adult animals from the same locality, with a new name Pachytriton inexpectatus.

There were some indications of new species in Wu et al 2009, but nothing that can be pinned down in direct relation to the new species. Genetic and morphological indicators were there, but the localities and relationships are not a one to one match between the studies. New species were expected in the P.granulosus-brevipes complex, but these were expected to be closer to P.granulosus, not P.brevipes. The Mao'er Shan population of P.inexpectatus was genetically distinctive, but no moreso than any other population. Given that two species occur at that locality, and one is more easily detected, it's quite a lucky chance that P.moi was identified at all. The Anhui populations [P.feii] were known but thought to be the range limit for both the genus and specifically for P.granulosus, and they don't seem to have been specifically studied by Wu et al.

The subjects of this forum now include:

Laotriton laoensis [formerly Paramesotriton laoensis]

Paramesotriton (Allomesotriton) caudopunctatus
Paramesotriton chinensis
Paramesotriton (Paramesotriton) deloustali
Paramesotriton (Paramesotriton) fuzhongensis
Paramesotriton (Paramesotriton) guanxiensis
Paramesotriton (Paramesotriton) cf. guanxiensis
Paramesotriton hongkongensis
Paramesotriton labiatus [formerly Paramesotriton ermizhaoi and Pachytriton C]
Paramesotriton (Allomesotriton) longliensis
Paramesotriton (Paramesotriton) yunwuensis
Paramesotriton (Allomesotriton) zhijinensis

Pachytriton archospotus
Pachytriton brevipes
Pachytriton feii
Pachytriton granulosus
Pachytriton inexpectatus [formerly incorrectly Pachytriton labiatus]
Pachytriton moi
Pachytriton cf. brevipes, unknown origin
Pachytriton cf. brevipes, Mt Daiyun Fujian, potentially identical to the previous

More species of Paramesotriton are almost certain to be described, and possibly also Laotriton. Pachytriton is another matter, since the variation is both cryptic and habitat-restricted, which means the existing species naes will likely be dissected, rather than distinctive new species being discovered in new localities. I have some studying to do before I can see if identificiation of torrent newts is getting any easier...or harder.

Arf....taxonomic fun, i love it xDD
Thank you Chris for posting the article, and thank you, FrogEyes, for your wonderful, concise, explanations, i could never get tired of them!
I´m happy to see that the asiatic newts are receiving more attention in recent years, i can´t wait to see what changes the future will bring

Can you tell me what inexpectatus means in the context of scientific names? Why does it get applied to a species?

I think scientists name a species/subspecies inexpectatus when it is found far away from their normal range. Mesotriton alpestris i. is an example for that.

It means "unexpected", because it was unexpected that a long- and well-known species was actually undescribed [since the original description was actually a Paramesotriton]. Similarly, Mantella expectata was named because it WAS expected to be described, since photos appeared years earlier in DATZ magazine of what was obviously a new and undescribed species.

Scientific names can mean anything at all...including nothing at all. Modern taxonomic descriptions normally include an etymology [word origin] for new names, so that people are not left second-guessing for centuries, and so that mistakes can be easily corrected. There are many names now which include the acronym for an agency or organization. There are also many names for which the root words aren't used for their meanings, so much as for the fact that related organisms have the same root word. Viz, Phyllobates, Dendrobates, Epipedobates, and Phobobates were named for their lifestyle: "leaf-walker", "tree-walker", "upon-the-ground-walker", and "fear-walker" [runs and hides]. Adelphobates, "brotherly-walker", however, was not named for its movement, but because it is a "brother" to a number of other frogs named "-bates"

Mistakes such as the naming of "Dendrobates dorisswansoni" and "Batrachoseps wrighti". Both of these names are grammatically wrong, and have subsequently been corrected to "Dendrobates dorisswansonae" and "Batrachoseps wrightorum". The "i" termination indicates a name honoring a man, but the frog was described to specifically honor a woman, which necessitates an "ae" termination. The salamander was described to specifically honor two people, necessitating a plural "orum" termination. It might not be possible to figure out these details unless details of exactly why a name was chosen, are actually included.

Sadly, sometimes the terminations are used in ways which are rather un-Latin, such as using a place name or habitat [ense, ensis, anus, aticum, anum, etc...] as if it's a person's name [ae, i, orum]. Other times, the endings have nothing to do with Latin grammar, and are instead what's called a "noun in apposition". That is, the word is a noun used as-is, as an adjective. We do this in many languages - the word "notebook" is a noun, but it is used as an adjective in the phrase "notebook computer". When a person's name already ends in "i", "ae", or some other inconvenient letter combination, sometimes it's just simpler to treat it as a noun in apposition, rather than play with difficult or confusing grammatical spellings.

FYI, Sparreboom and Wu, at the Chinese salamanders Lifedesk, treat most of the torrent newts as a single named species, P.brevipes. This would include what Wu considers the variable northeastern "labiatus" plus typical brevipes. Wu has not yet addressed the re-assessment of P.granulosus, the reassignment of Paramesotriton labiatus, redescription of P.inexpectatus, descriptions of P.feii and P.moi, or recognition of P.cf.brevipes. Their concept would include, by implication, P.feii, P.granulosus, and P.cf.brevipes in P.brevipes, resulting in a highly variable "species" which includes several morphologically and genetically distinct groups. This is valid from a cladistic point of view, and avoids the issues of the correct name and still highly variable P.granulosus. By leaving MORE variation under a single name

I suspect this was just a temporary solution, made partly because the other publications had not yet been evaluated in detail. In any case, this "solution" doesn't exist in any formal manner at this time, because the website on which it appears does not count as a "publication" as far as name adjustments are concerned.

One should be aware though of that approach, since potentially some publications could end up refering to P.brevipes in the strict sense of a bulky SE species which is beige with black spots, while another will refer to it in a broad sense which includes also the slender dark P.feii, slender variable [usually dark] P.granulosus, and the undescribed P.cf.brevipes.

Neither of these approaches is etched in stone. There is NO formal system for "approving" what species are accepted. It is up to each individual to judge the evidence for each approach and decide for themselves which seems most appropriate. In my opinion, only the actual scientific arguments should count when making that decision. "They look nothing alike" doesn't count for much, if anything!

Ah no, not more taxonomy shuffling, I get enough of this already, On the good side, let's hope that this new information lets me work out what the hell Imi is supposed to be

I believe I have previously seen pictures of your animals, and they were the same as the vast majority currently exported - P.granulosus. It is likely that some P.feii are mixed in, but the two species are presently differentiated by differences in body proportions. Get some MS-222 and a pair of calipers!

Was this comment meant for me? If so, I'm a bit confused - the only picture of my paddletails is the one on my profile page. I'm almost certain the smaller one (Rissi) is labiatus, I'm just confused about Imi, who seems to have hints of a few species. I will post some proper pictures of Imi when I have access to a camera other than my phone (which takes only blurry photos)

Yes, that was directed to you Angie. You're correct - I hadn't seen your photos. However, now that I've looked at them I would still arrive at the same conclusion. Both P.granulosus. They're too slender and small to be anything other than P.granulosus or P.feii.

Most animals identified as "P.labiatus" are the small, slender, red-striped animals from Zhejiang, not the large, robust, plain brown animals from Guangxi. The former are P.granulosus. Notwithstanding the fact that labiatus are not Pachytriton, and the robust Guangxi Pachytriton are not labiatus. The name labiatus was actually created for specimens named later as Pachytriton C and Paramesotriton ermizhaoi, so the latter is now Paramesotriton labiatus. The big brown pachys from the same mountain were actually nameless and are now P.inexpectatus. Similar animals overlapping in range are P.moi.

To simplify the issue...
Animals commonly called Pachytriton labiatus are either:
P.inexpectatus [big brown from Guangxi]. Rarely P.moi from Guangxi.
or
P.granulosus [skinny little one from Zhejiang, all colors, usually brown with red stripes]. Rarely P.feii from Anhui.

I believed that they were different species due to their size difference and the difference in belly patterning - it looks like fire bellies on Rissi's underbelly, and on Imi it looks like rectangles of a pale colour, with 'watery' darker patches. And with regard to size, in the picture they are in a 4 litre fish bowl (they were only in there for the picture). The main reason I believed Rissi to be labiatus is partly due to the fact that she is identical to the labiatus pictured on the caudata care sheet.

Everything labeled as P.labiatus on the CC sheet is P.granulosus. You'll note that the CC sheets only deal with two named species, and P.archospotus isn't mentioned except in the main species list. Those write-ups haven't accounted for any of the recent research differentiating six named and one unnamed species. Much more up to date information is posted in these threads.

As for belly color, it changes with age and size. It can be useful for species identification, but only in proper context. P.feii and P.granulosus juveniles resemble rough-skinned firebellied newts (Hypselotriton orientalis) with scarlet bellies, and along with other features which change, their bellies fade as they grow. A small animal may simply be a younger animal, not necessarily a different species.

I have been working on keys to identify Asian newts, but they're not an easy bunch, given their shortage of reliable external features.