Paramesotriton hainanensis?!

Exciting new developments here on the Paramesotriton front! (well, at least I'm excited!)

I've been lucky enough to acquire four new varities of Paramesotriton to add to the four I've had from before (namely hongkongensis, caudopunctatus, and two others that have been subject to speculation as to their true identity).

Thing is, they're all different from each other and from the ones I had before...so that would make eight varities...though I would assume some are subspecies.

At least one of the new additions is definitely P.chinensis. Two others were imported as P.asperrimus (no, not Echinotriton asperrimus) and P.guangxiensis

To start with, here are some pics of one that was imported as P.hainanensis -- though as far as I know there are no Paramesotriton existing on Hainan Island.

This giant (heavy!) is about twice the bulk of any of the other Paramesotriton I have had in my collection prior to today. I measured it at 17cm long and 3cm wide at the widest point in its midsection. The head is especially huge.

These pics are are of the same individual, though I have three more of the same variety, two of which are approximately the same size.

Any guesses as to what it might be?

(P.S. not keeping it together with any Cynops -- it was just in the same tank for the pic)







The last pic is of the "P.hainanensis" situated alongside the biggest of my previously-held Paramesotriton (not quite sure what it is either...)

Hi Tim. Of course, there's no such species as P. hainanensis...who knows if the animals are even from Hainan. It's been said before, but it's likely that those of us keeping the wierd, currently unidentifiable Paramesotritons are likely going to end up with new species once the taxonomic dust settles.

I've seen the large, bulky animals like the photo you provide here in the states. Not altogether unlike the deloustali photo in National Geographic.

Hi Tim,
large head, bulky trunk and length support P. deloustali or something close to it (max. length 20 cm; next largest is fuzhongensis with a length of 16,6 cm (holotype; THORN & RAFFAELLI 2001). Are you sure it didn't spell "hanoiensis" (just kidding)? Consider this a guess, since I have seen deloustali only on photos (Rehak; Janssens).
Keep 'em coming, Tim.

Ralf

Here's another I acquired today after confirming its sex (the others, I had no idea at time of purchase). I think she's the species/subspecies as the one in the previous two pics. She's 18cm long (or sightly longer) but not as bulky. Belly coloration/pattern is absolutely incredible!
(though there's one more I'll post later that rivals her)

As to whether it might conceivably be deloustali, hmmm....haven't yet seen the National Geographic photo and missed last week's Japanese TV program that showed deloustali at Tam Dao.

The deloustali pictured in the Mergus atlas I posted at:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/messages/13/43.html?1038735979
doesn't necessarily look like other pics of it I've seen elsewhere.

May have to seek some input from Henri Janssens as Henk Wallays said he's the most devoted Paremesotriton specialist!

But like Nate said, it could be anything really. All I can say is that I hope its eventually named after me. Paramesotriton timensis anyone? But seriously, I wonder if the taxonomic dust will ever settle...in my lifetime. Can't imagine many minds are hard at work on this puzzle!

Ralf, interesting facts. Thanks! Didn't know until now that deloustali had the maximum length of any Paramesotriton.
"hanoiensis"?
I wouldn't rule that out, considering the number of animals flowing across the Sino-Vietnamese border (mostly snakes, pangolins...but newts?!)

There hasn't been much mention about this, but deloustali or something like it are also said to have been found in Laos, right?

So...back to the newts themselves, when I chose my initial ones over the weekend, it struck me that among the dozens to choose from, not one had a sheen on its tail. It had me thinking that males of this species may not develop sheens. But today, I found a male at another shop (same shipment, same general appearance) with an unmistakable sheen:

(that's not the pic of the one with the beautiful belly I said I'd show sometime later )

In fact, however, this male sold as P.hainanensis looks suspiciously like two others I bought as P. asperrimus (both also males), and I am beginning to suspect some foul play on the part of somebody in the chain of distribution, who possibly just separated them by size and made up different names for them.

Here is the same male pictured above the two "asperrimus" (there being no such thing, of course).

I have no idea what they are, but they are definately cool.

~Aaron

Oops, that should read "to the right of" not "above"

In answer to my own question above, I've subsequently read a report on the new Paramesotriton species fairly recently discovered in Laos (P.laoensis), and this is clearly distinct from P.deloustali and all other Paramesotriton, with cryptic tan dorsal markings. A really incredible animal!

This is the same kind of newt as in the above pics. Took this pic at the shop today. And for the record, it's not my frog, so no hate mail pls!



Trying to figure out what they'll feast on, since at their size they don't seem to go for frozen bloodworm or live tubifex, either my "hainanensis" newts or those of another person I know who bought them.

At the shop, they ate minnows, frogs and crickets ...but I'm looking for alternatives.

Hi Tim,
you could try feeding them nightcrawlers or other kinds of earthworms (Lumbricidae). Check your local angling-supply dealer also (bait). Compost or manure worms should not be fed (animals often refuse them, anyway). You might consider to breed your own feeder guppies, although I'm not a friend of feeding live vertebrates to others. You might also consider feeding strips of lean beef heart (wiggle them with tweezers in front of the animal). Advantage of beef heart is, that you can easily store it in your freezer (but supposed to be only part of your newts' diet). I also used self-made "sausages" for larger caudates (A. mexicanum, P. waltl) using smaller food organisms (frozen bloodworms, plancton, artemia etc.) embedded in a layer of gelatineous substance (the kind of which depends on water temp. basically, Agar agar usually works fine) and then cut into strips.
Hope this helps.

Ralf

Ralf, I'm very interested in your sausage recipe! Maybe we should start a new message thread, as this isn't really about Paramesotritons. If you could give exact (or approximate) proportions of the ingredients, that would be great! Can you freeze it?

Jennifer, unfortunately I don't have a fixed recipe. Let me do some cooking again to provide you with approximate proportions of the main ingredients (food organisms pretty much depend on what you have access to). I froze a variation using gelatine (the one you use in the kitchen) once and it worked. I will try to freeze the one on Agar Agar basis also. I will post the results in a new thread. One has to consider though, that this usually means second freezing for formerly frozen food organisms (after thawing,rinsing and mixing with hot gelatine) possibly resulting in a loss of nutrients. My newts liked it though.

Ralf

Hi All,
Taking a break from the move and using the wife's lap top to check in,
Jen, frozen diets using Knox gelatin are very commonly used for feeding a balanced diet to various fish at many of the public aquaria. There are many homemade version of these diets (most depend upon how tolerant your family and/or significant other is to concoctions in the freezer (mine is fairly tolerant). Many of the fish recipes are some variation of the following (for marine fish) run through a blender,
whole shrimp (the shell is used to improve color in marine and fresh water fish), clams, algae, fish (usually whatever is on sale)and a vitamin/mineral supplement. The excess moisture is squeezed out of the mix and used to make the gelatin base. The other ingredients are then folded into the gelatin and cut into appropriate sized pieces and frozen for use.
A fresh water mix will usually contain beefheart and/or glassworms and/or brine shrimp and/or fish, algae (usually spirulina),vitamin and mineral supplement prepared as above.
Ed

Ralf, I live smack in the city-center so don't have a "local angling-supply dealer"
...though I suppose I could find one somewhere on the outskirts. Which reminds me, I was told to be careful about using a certain kind of worm used as fish bait, possibly the compost or manure worms you mentioned.

I'm also not a friend of feeding live vertebrates to others, and that frog feeding episode was pretty disturbing. The feeder frog in the above pic did get away, by the way...but only to be fed to a Pachytriton B.



I wanted to report here that I have had some feeding success with these new "giant" Paramesotriton, namely using Hikari-brand sinking pellets, the ones used for feeding catfish. They took to them immediately!

I've also bought some pre-shelled frozen shrimp, which I was thinking of rinsing well first to get any salt off. Please warn me if this sounds risky in any way. Bought some canned cat food (fish and chicken chunks with no broth) as well that I might try, again using tweezers.

Being a cow-loving vegetarian, I'd rather not have to make trips to the butcher shop for beef heart and store it in my fridge!
... though buying dog and cat food is basically the same thing, I guess.

Very interested in those self-made "sausages" !