N
nate
Guest
(reopening the last thread here)
I'll go ahead and post my overall opinion and my rationale to each "distinguishing" characteristic of chenggongensis as described by Kou and Xing and how they apply to Tim's animals.
1.) C. chenggongensis has a less prominent vertebral ridge than C. cyanurus
Like Willj pointed out, these guys have every bit of a pronounced vertebral ridge as the cyanurus.
2.) C. chenggongensis has smoother skin than cyanurus
Clearly, neither group of animals appears to have smoother skin than the other. I would also add that my own cyanurus' skin texture can change from fairly rough to very smooth.
3.) C. chenggongensis is slightly longer than C. cyanurus
The comparison photo above is not a very good one, as it appears to have a small male next to a large, well-fed female. Females are already known to be larger than males. The maximum length given for chenggongensis is 10.6cm, yet the maximum length for C. c. yunnanensis is 11.5cm. So we have a contradiction in the literature, and an obsolete distinguishing characteristic.
4.) Female chenggongensis have conspicuous black spots on the tail
We see black spots, but we also see them on cyanurus. I have female yunnanensis with black spots as well. Again, a useless characteristic overall.
5.) C. chenggongensis have a row of 1-10 (sometimes more) yellow to orange spots along the sides, from shoulder to tail base (NOTE: most have this, not all)
We see a single spot on one animal that fits this description. However, we see a similar spot on Paul's yunnanensis. I also have 2 animals which show a spot in the same general area. C. orientalis often have a spot in this area. The fact is, most animals should be showing 1-10 spots according to the description, yet not a single animal shown by either Tim nor Angus shows a row of spots. Only one animal even shows one spot.
Ok, on to some sweeping conclusions:
1.) Angus does not possess chenggongensis (and neither does Tim). Sorry Tim! But I get the feeling you're not needing much consolation right now...
2.) The characteristics described for chenggongensis are subjective, poor, and just as applicable to cyanurus, other than having a row of 1-10 spots.
3.) C. cyanurus is clearly a highly variable group. The same animal may possess traits of both yunnanesis and cyanurus, as Paul points out on one of Tim's photos (nominate cyanurus tail coloration, yet yunnanensis cloaca on the same animal). Adding to this, animals change colors or periodically lighten and darken. Subspecies may not even be warranted. Remember: this is precisely what Zhao already told Angus and so shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
4.) At best, it seems likely that chenggongensis was never a valid species and was misidentified cyanurus. Remember: this is precisely what Zhao told Angus and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
5.) C cyanurus (of all kinds) are exceptionally beautiful newts! You're a lucky man, Tim
(Message edited by nate on October 10, 2004)
(Message edited by nate on October 10, 2004)
I'll go ahead and post my overall opinion and my rationale to each "distinguishing" characteristic of chenggongensis as described by Kou and Xing and how they apply to Tim's animals.
1.) C. chenggongensis has a less prominent vertebral ridge than C. cyanurus
Like Willj pointed out, these guys have every bit of a pronounced vertebral ridge as the cyanurus.
2.) C. chenggongensis has smoother skin than cyanurus
Clearly, neither group of animals appears to have smoother skin than the other. I would also add that my own cyanurus' skin texture can change from fairly rough to very smooth.
3.) C. chenggongensis is slightly longer than C. cyanurus
The comparison photo above is not a very good one, as it appears to have a small male next to a large, well-fed female. Females are already known to be larger than males. The maximum length given for chenggongensis is 10.6cm, yet the maximum length for C. c. yunnanensis is 11.5cm. So we have a contradiction in the literature, and an obsolete distinguishing characteristic.
4.) Female chenggongensis have conspicuous black spots on the tail
We see black spots, but we also see them on cyanurus. I have female yunnanensis with black spots as well. Again, a useless characteristic overall.
5.) C. chenggongensis have a row of 1-10 (sometimes more) yellow to orange spots along the sides, from shoulder to tail base (NOTE: most have this, not all)
We see a single spot on one animal that fits this description. However, we see a similar spot on Paul's yunnanensis. I also have 2 animals which show a spot in the same general area. C. orientalis often have a spot in this area. The fact is, most animals should be showing 1-10 spots according to the description, yet not a single animal shown by either Tim nor Angus shows a row of spots. Only one animal even shows one spot.
Ok, on to some sweeping conclusions:
1.) Angus does not possess chenggongensis (and neither does Tim). Sorry Tim! But I get the feeling you're not needing much consolation right now...
2.) The characteristics described for chenggongensis are subjective, poor, and just as applicable to cyanurus, other than having a row of 1-10 spots.
3.) C. cyanurus is clearly a highly variable group. The same animal may possess traits of both yunnanesis and cyanurus, as Paul points out on one of Tim's photos (nominate cyanurus tail coloration, yet yunnanensis cloaca on the same animal). Adding to this, animals change colors or periodically lighten and darken. Subspecies may not even be warranted. Remember: this is precisely what Zhao already told Angus and so shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
4.) At best, it seems likely that chenggongensis was never a valid species and was misidentified cyanurus. Remember: this is precisely what Zhao told Angus and shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
5.) C cyanurus (of all kinds) are exceptionally beautiful newts! You're a lucky man, Tim
(Message edited by nate on October 10, 2004)
(Message edited by nate on October 10, 2004)