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Sick Axolotl? Axolotl looking down in the gills? The doctors are in.

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Old 4th February 2009   #1
laurasplanb
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Unhappy Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi all needing some help for my poorly axie Archimedes. This is an on going problem that only effects her, so im thinking she has some sort of gut infection.

Background
She is 3 and a half, I got her and her sister 3 years ago.

They live in a four ft tank, that is mature, all levels are fine.

Temp is around 16C, as i live in england and its very cool at the minute, so good for axies

I have always used sand so no problems there

they eat salmon pellets and blood worms, once a week.

Yes I do half tank water changes every two weeks, this is fine as there is so much water for them to live in, it doesnt get dirty very quick. and yes I used decloriator stuff.

The Problem
She floats, which im aware is not always a problem when they are doing it for fun, but this is a problem when she can't actually keep her self down on the ground. it happens to her about once a month, it starts by she cant keep her bum down, then the next day she cant get away from the surface, its like she is a helium balloon. she tries to swim down but as soon as she stops to rest she is dragged to the surface again.

What I do
I really distresses her when she cant keep down so I take her out of the tank and put her in an ice cream tub so that there is only enough water for her to stand in, so she can touch the floor and not be stressed, she stays in the ice cream tub until she stops having the floating problem, usually two days, and yes the water levels in the tub are fine, and i change it everyday,

Then recovered she goes back in the tank, all beter, but in a few weeks she is having the floating problem again.

So I think she has a gut infection that calms down and flares up, but she can't seem to kill off the illness completely so when her immune system is down it flares up again.

Im thinking she needs some sort of anti biotic to kill this thing, but in england no vets have a clue about axolotls. what should I do.

Has anyone heard of this problem before?

Does anyone know what treatments are safe for axies?

Anyone in the UK know a good vet?

please help

Laura, Archimedes and Algebra (her sister who never gets the problem)



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Old 4th February 2009   #2
Rayson
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi Laura,

Its excellent that you provided such a detailed patient history. History alone can give us a lot of clues in diagnosis.

Floating can be normal (physiological) versus pathological (disease/illness). Correct me if i am wrong but based on the history, it seems that the floating is for prolonged periods. If this is the case, physiological causes like needing to expel excess gases (through poop etc.) is less likely because axies tend to sink back down thereafter. Pathological causes of floating include vestibular (inner ear complex) problems that cause a loss of equillibrium.

Stress can also cause floating. Environmental stress like poor water parameters, high or fluctuating water temperatures and currents are common causes of stress. It appears that you have a good grip on water parameters and temperature. Does your tank have excessive water currents? Do you have any pebbles or marbles etc that can be ingested by the axie? Continue to watch out for the following signs of stress and illness. Does your axie have any of the signs accompanying?

- Forward curling gills
- Curled tail tip
- Inappetance and body condition loss
- Unusual growths (lesions). sores, or skin discolouration anywhere on the body
- Excessive mucus formation on skin
- Regurgitation of food (normally mucus covered ingesta boluses)
- Unusual twitching movements or writhing to get out
- Change in appearance of the axolotl such as eyelids forming, smaller pointer head, shrinking gills and fins
- Absence of excrement or unusual looking faecal matter (maybe a different colour etc despite same food)

Also how does the axie's body itself look? Does the axie seem bloated? If it is possible, it would be a good idea to post a photo here. Also was the floating episode sudden in onset or gradual and chronic? Has there been a change recently in husbandry? New product used? New animals or plants introduced? New food etc?

Nutrition wise, pellets and bloodworms are nutritious so they are fine. You may like to offer a variety of other food just so to ensure your axie can obtain the essential nutrients.

Floating itself is stressful to the axie so i think your approach in placing her in a container with shallower water levels is a good one. I would recommend at this stage to fridge your axie. Just place her in a container large enough to allow her limbs and tail to stretch out comfortably and fill water level enough to submerge her yet let her feet touch the ground. Do not let her float. Use a perforated or netted lid to prevent her jumping out. You can then use a teatowel to cover the container to provide a dark environment. Perform daily water changes with clean dechlorinated water stored in bottles in the fridge. You can continue to offer her food daily and remove any uneaten food and wastes. Fridging would be beneficial because firstly it prevents her from floating, is destressing, improves her immunity and also render pathogens less likely to proliferate. You can leave her there for 2 weeks or so while you buy some time and work out the cause of her floating. Sometimes after a period of fridging, some axies will just self resolve their floating.

I don't understand what made you suspect she has a gut infection. I don't see any indications. Normally gut infections will result in inappetance, body condition loss, anaemia, poorly formed fresh poo(instead of the usual fresh blob appearance) and sometimes odd writhing behaviour. Floating itself is non pathognomic and is not a direct indication of gut problems.

However if you are worried of a transmissible illness, it would be wise to isolate and quarantine your floating axie away from the main tank (such as in the fridge). Granted different axies have different resistance, it is merely a matter of time if indeed an infectious cause is found.

It is possible that some axies with intermittent flare ups of sickness are subclinical carriers of pathogens. Mycobacteria, salmonella, saprolegnia etc. are some of these and can remain somewhat asymptomatic and dormant until recrudesce in times of stress.

If it is of any use, you might like to request your vet to take a fresh poo sample from your axie for a faecal floatation, culture and microscopy. A small blood sample for haematology and biochemistry will also be useful to identify signs of inflammation, renal, liver function etc.

As a first line conservative treatment, i would say purely the isolation, fridging and shallower water level in the tub will suffice. You can actually leave the axie there for a longer period if you wish, maybe up to a month and assess throughout.

It is only when your vet has accurately diagnosed the cause of illness that medical treatment is indicated. Please do not attempt to treat your axie with chemicals from aquarium shops. Even with antibiotic treatment, the vet would have to be very careful. There are some classes of antibiotics that are nephrotoxic or cytotoxic such as fluoroquinolones (enrofloxacin) or strongly irritating to the skin even in minute amounts such as the tetracyclines. Also the dosage for amphibians has to be carefully measured to prevent toxicity yet maintaining efficacy (ie 5mg/kg) Also antibiotic therapy would involve injectable routes that only a vet can perform.

If your vet requires references on dosage and treatment, please feel free to post here. We can direct you to some good references. However, as a general rule, my emphirical antibiotic treatments on axies involve a broad spectrum antibiotic such as an aminoglycoside (amikacin maybe plus piperacillin and metronidazole). I would meanwhile wait for sensitivity results to be back. Sometimes enrofloxacin can be used but VERY carefully.

Cheers.



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Old 4th February 2009   #3
laurasplanb
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Thanks for trying to help

The reason I was thinking it is an infection in her gut is because it comes and goes like she can't fight it off completely. your right its probably not an infection but it is something wrong with her digestive system.

Il try and answer suggestions as a way of process of elimination

It does seem possible that it is to do with needing to expel gas or poo, but this seems to be a symptom of the infection not the cause. She does get bloated sometime when she has her floating thing. then when she poos or farts hehe she stops floating.

What im trying to get to the bottom of is why she keeps getting this build up of gas or blockage in her guts.

it is an ongoing thing but, she doesnt have it all the time, she gets better for weeks, and it has been going on for about half a year, so i dont think its going to kill her. and through all this time she has been in with another axolotl which has never caught it off her.

aprt from when she is floating she and her sister are not stressed, as i said the water is fine, and the gills do not point forward, the water flow is very slow because of a spray bar.

and its not a pebble in the gut because i have always had sand.

she still eats normally, quite happy to eat.

there are no skin problems, no fungus, cuts etc

the floating does come on gradually, her bum floats first for a day then her, i think she gets stress when it starts and makes her self worse

I dont want to put her in the fridge, she is actualy not floating any more, and has manged to fight it off and get beter many times without going in the fridge.

I need to find a vet that can test for those things you talked about:

"It is possible that some axies with intermittent flare ups of sickness are subclinical carriers of pathogens. Mycobacteria, salmonella etc. are some of these and can remain somewhat asymptomatic and dormant until recrudesce in times of stress."

problem is i have rung all the ones in my area no one even knows what an axolotl is.

I have attached a picture of her as you can see she looks normal now, she is not floating anymore, it looks like her tail is curled, but i think this is actualy just that there is not enough room in the tub.

but i want to find out why it keeps happening so it doesnt come back again. would love to hear if anyone knows any experts in england, especialy in the oxfordshire area
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Old 4th February 2009   #4
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hello, sorry I don't have any theories on the floating business, but she looks rather skinny, is this her usual shape or does she lose weight when she's had a floating episode?



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Old 4th February 2009   #5
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi Laura,

Based on the photos and additional history, i would suggest perhaps you offer a wider variety of diet and monitor if there is any improvement.

Try feeding other than pellets and bloodworms, some earthworms, treats of shrimp, fish, beef heart etc. Sometimes certain diets can cause more air to build up and different axies digest different things differently.

Another thing i noticed are the gills. I couldn't see them very clearly but are they shrivelled or tattered looking in anyway? Gill disease can cause an axie to float more frequently to the surface for air exchange.

Cheers.



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Old 4th February 2009   #6
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

thanks

your right she is a bit skinny at the minute, i tried not to feed her much because i thought it would cause more bloating.

As to the gills they have hardly any feathery bits on the stems after i got told to treat fungus on her gills with iodine, the iodine burnt away the fungus (really well if anyone is having problems with fungus) but it also burnt away her gill that have never grown back, which i thought they were supposed to, and the fungus episode was over a year ago.

but i think this is unrelated as she is not floating to the surface for air, it is a problem that stops her from being able to sink

probably a dumb question but do axolotls have swim bladders?

because it seems like a similar problem as fish get, when they have an infected swim bladder they cant stop floating?

I will defiantly try and get them different food types, i guess iv been lazy, just using food that is easy to store



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Old 5th February 2009   #7
Rayson
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi Laura,

Offering a variety of nutritious food is the way to prevent malnutrition and gastrointestinal problems like constipation which can cause excess air to build up in the gut.

Bloat is a different condition whereby the animal has generalised oedema. This is a serious condition usually attributed to renal dysfunction and/or scepticaemia.

I am somewhat a little shocked that you used iodine to treat fungus. Salt baths are the way to go with fungal treatment. Iodine can actually cause some axies to undergo metamorphosis if they are genetically predisposed because it affects the thyroid gland directly and thus can affect the throthrophin releasing factor - thyrothrophic hormone - thyroxine axis. However that said, subjecting your axie to iodine, especially for experimental purposes is cruel and can cause its death. Please never use iodine for fungal treatments again.

Cheers.



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Old 5th February 2009   #8
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi again Laura,

Sorry i realised i missed out the last part of your question.

Axolotls do not have swim bladders. There is a lot of misinformation about especially from pet shops that axolotls have a swim bladder. I have even seen petshop newsletters and articles suggesting axolotls not be kept in circular bowls etc. so as to not cause the swim bladder to be overdeveloped on one side. This is WRONG information.

There are many other reasons why axolotls may exhibit incoordination or floating. Chemical insults such as poor water quality, toxins and poisons, neurological and vestibular disease, blindness and even irritation from parasites are some of these causes.

Cheers



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Old 5th February 2009   #9
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Oh my god I feel so bad for putting iodine on her, the vets told me to do it, shows how trustworthy they are.

Do you think she is going to metamorphosis?

she has been a bit weird ever since, how long would it take to happen?

Ever since the iodine she has lost loads of the feathery bits from the gill stems, and she always goes and balances on the air stone tube or a plant so she can hold herself near the top of the water and she prefers to gulp more air from the surface with her mouth (this wanting to be near the surface is not the floating problem).

thanks for clearing up the swim bladder thing, I was confused because i went to a reptile shop and asked about floating problems and they tried to sell me stuff for fish swim bladders, I said no because I knew lots of treatments for fish could harm axolotls.



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Old 5th February 2009   #10
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi Laura,

Well at least now you are on the right track and know where to find information. I am relieved that you didn't purchase chemicals off the aquarium shop counter. To them, any sales is business and a lot of them will spin you stories just to earn your money. Chemicals like you said, are frequently harmful to your axie.

The majority of axolotls do not metamorphosize. Axolotls are neotenic and not facultatively neotenic like tiger salamanders (a close cousin). A lot of the time, axies that morph have been hybridized substantially with tiger salamander genes. Chances of axies morphing are low.

Loss of gill fimbriae (the feathery bit) can be due to poor water quality, infections, poor nutrition or just really high oxygenation. I would look into those areas first to make sure they are not the cause.

When an axie morphs, the entire gill including the stalk and not just the fimbriae will gradually shrivel. There will also be a change in appearance of the axolotl such as eyelids forming, smaller pointer head, shrinking fins (tail crest). Behaviour wise, they tend to become inappetant and would head to the water surface more as if trying to get out.

Actually because im a vet myself, i must say that a lot of vet schools do not really teach axolotl medicine and surgery during the bachelor's degree course. Amphibian medicine actually requires post grad training. They are a specialised field in exotics medicine. It is not surprising many general practitioner vets are not familiar with treating axolotls.

I had a basic understanding of aquarium and axolotl medicine when i stumbled upon this site. Most importantly, i feel that vets must know how to acquire accurate information via literature, journals, correspondences with experts etc. I used to refer my axolotl patients to a specialist vet. However, now that im much more confident and have read up amphibian medicine texts, im beginning to take up axolotl cases myself. It is a learning curve for everyone.

I don't think you should be angry or lose confidence in your vets. It would be more rewarding if you worked with your vet by directing them to references you know such that you work as a team together to improve the health of your axie. There are after all many procedures that only vets can perform.

Cheers

Ps: If its of any consolation, i have forgotten half of my production animal medicine !



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Old 5th February 2009   #11
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

sorry I didn't mean to offend any vets, its just so frustrating when certain ones tell you something that is just a guess, that could have ended up killing my pet.

Im quite calm now thanks to your suggestions, Archimedes is better again now and i will be feeding a wider variety of food to hopefully sort out her digestion problems.

As to the gills being less feathery, I would think that it could not be to do with water quality or nutrition or oxygen because the other axolotl in the tank is in exactly the conditions but has really fluffy gills.

Im not sure what to conclude maybe my axolotl is just a bit sensitive poor thing.



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Old 5th February 2009   #12
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Im glad everything turned out well for you and your axie laura. Its ok, i can understand your emotions. The happy ending itself is the most rewarding.

Cheers



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Old 6th February 2009   #13
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Hi,

You describe the symptoms of axolotl constipation. Which invariably starts with "bum floating" and ends with a motion. The frequency and consistent timing of this is a bit weird. I Agree with Ray try a varied diet.

Also if it worries you, Try the fridge for a few days as and when it occurs. If it is constipation this will help.

Good Luck



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Old 13th May 2018   #14
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Default Re: Axie can't keep its self down (floating problem)

Quote:
Originally Posted by laurasplanb View Post
Hi all needing some help for my poorly axie Archimedes. This is an on going problem that only effects her, so im thinking she has some sort of gut infection.

Background
She is 3 and a half, I got her and her sister 3 years ago.

They live in a four ft tank, that is mature, all levels are fine.

Temp is around 16C, as i live in england and its very cool at the minute, so good for axies

I have always used sand so no problems there

they eat salmon pellets and blood worms, once a week.

Yes I do half tank water changes every two weeks, this is fine as there is so much water for them to live in, it doesnt get dirty very quick. and yes I used decloriator stuff.

The Problem
She floats, which im aware is not always a problem when they are doing it for fun, but this is a problem when she can't actually keep her self down on the ground. it happens to her about once a month, it starts by she cant keep her bum down, then the next day she cant get away from the surface, its like she is a helium balloon. she tries to swim down but as soon as she stops to rest she is dragged to the surface again.

What I do
I really distresses her when she cant keep down so I take her out of the tank and put her in an ice cream tub so that there is only enough water for her to stand in, so she can touch the floor and not be stressed, she stays in the ice cream tub until she stops having the floating problem, usually two days, and yes the water levels in the tub are fine, and i change it everyday,

Then recovered she goes back in the tank, all beter, but in a few weeks she is having the floating problem again.

So I think she has a gut infection that calms down and flares up, but she can't seem to kill off the illness completely so when her immune system is down it flares up again.

Im thinking she needs some sort of anti biotic to kill this thing, but in england no vets have a clue about axolotls. what should I do.

Has anyone heard of this problem before?

Does anyone know what treatments are safe for axies?

Anyone in the UK know a good vet?

please help

Laura, Archimedes and Algebra (her sister who never gets the problem)
Hi, I’m aware that this post is from a while ago and you might not even have an account anymore but my axolotl is having the same exact problem. The only difference is that 1. Mine is a boy and 2. There are two rather large bumps on his side that he keeps covered up. This is the first it has happened and he’s rather young. I’ve only had him for about 3-4 months and he’s only about three to four inches long.



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