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Ammonia and nitrates, but no nitrites? (Fishless Cycling)

honeydew

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Hi all! So I’ve been trying to do a fishless cycle with my tank for a little over two weeks now. A few days ago the ammonia levels started dropping, but nitrites still weren’t budging from 0 ppm. After around 4 days of this I looked up what could be happening, and saw that some people’s cycles skipped straight to nitrates without showing nitrites. I tested nitrates and sure enough, there’s 20 ppm (I started at 0ppm.)

Is my tank cycled? I think I might add another dose of ammonia tonight to see how much it drops after 24 hrs. If it’s relevant, I used bottled bacteria a week after I first added the ammonia. Could that have caused the nitrite skip?

Thanks and would be happy for any insight!
 

honeydew

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Update: I’ve been doing the 24-hr test and my ammonia barely budges, so I suppose I’m not cycled. Still no trace of nitrites either. Does anyone know what’s going on here?
 

Tye

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You're still at the start.
You won't start to see nitrites until a large enough colony of ammonia eating bacteria take hold. It's normal to see small amounts of nitrate through the whole process.
When the ammonia eating bacteria are established you will see a sharp spike in nitrites and a complete lack of ammonia. Then that nitrite spike will vanish when the second set of colonizing bacteria establishes itself. Then you'll get the final reading of 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 30-40ppm nitrate.
It can take a month or longer to fully cycle a tank, don't worry.
 

honeydew

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You're still at the start.
You won't start to see nitrites until a large enough colony of ammonia eating bacteria take hold. It's normal to see small amounts of nitrate through the whole process.
When the ammonia eating bacteria are established you will see a sharp spike in nitrites and a complete lack of ammonia. Then that nitrite spike will vanish when the second set of colonizing bacteria establishes itself. Then you'll get the final reading of 0 ammonia, 0 nitrite and 30-40ppm nitrate.
It can take a month or longer to fully cycle a tank, don't worry.

Thank you so much for your reply! I’m very paranoid about my axolotl’s safety so I’m definitely grateful to have more experienced users on here to learn from. I’ll just stay patient!
 

honeydew

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Hi all! Just thought I’d leave an update- my tank is finally cycled!

In case any future readers are having the same problems as I had I thought I’d share what worked for me.
I had a sponge filter from the start, but I didn’t notice any progress until I set up an Aquaclear HOB filter and put in some used filter sponge from my LFS. Just a couple days after doing that, I began to get small nitrite readings, and then about a week after that ammonia began dropping quickly and nitrite readings climbed much higher. After a while of this (redosing ammonia up to 4ppm and waiting,) I finally got to the point two days ago where 4ppm of ammonia converted to nitrites then nitrates in 24 hr. Peepo is now happy in his much spacier home!

If anybody reading still has questions that I might be able to answer, then feel free to reply here or message me. Thanks so much to everyone who helped me out!
 

PixieKez

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Hi all! Just thought I’d leave an update- my tank is finally cycled!

In case any future readers are having the same problems as I had I thought I’d share what worked for me.
I had a sponge filter from the start, but I didn’t notice any progress until I set up an Aquaclear HOB filter and put in some used filter sponge from my LFS. Just a couple days after doing that, I began to get small nitrite readings, and then about a week after that ammonia began dropping quickly and nitrite readings climbed much higher. After a while of this (redosing ammonia up to 4ppm and waiting,) I finally got to the point two days ago where 4ppm of ammonia converted to nitrites then nitrates in 24 hr. Peepo is now happy in his much spacier home!

If anybody reading still has questions that I might be able to answer, then feel free to reply here or message me. Thanks so much to everyone who helped me out!
Hi there. Your post is so relevant as I am going through exactly what you did. Ammonia constantly 2ppm or just above, nitrates remain at 0 and seeing about 10ppm of nitrates. I have two filters one canister big sponge filter and the other back of the tank with sponges it’s smaller. Been over two weeks and tearing my hair out it never seems to change. Do you think I need to introduce a third filter? Advice will be so appreciated!
 

wolfen

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Hi there. Your post is so relevant as I am going through exactly what you did. Ammonia constantly 2ppm or just above, nitrates remain at 0 and seeing about 10ppm of nitrates. I have two filters one canister big sponge filter and the other back of the tank with sponges it’s smaller. Been over two weeks and tearing my hair out it never seems to change. Do you think I need to introduce a third filter? Advice will be so appreciated!
if you can introduce more bio-media, sponges are fine for trapping debris and for when only a small bacteria colony is required but for a large bacteria colony bio-media is better as the larger surface area allows for larger colonisation.
 

PixieKez

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if you can introduce more bio-media, sponges are fine for trapping debris and for when only a small bacteria colony is required but for a large bacteria colony bio-media is better as the larger surface area allows for larger colonisation.
I just bought another filter but I’m not so clued up. Which filters give the highest colony surface do you know? Thank you!
 

wolfen

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it isn't so much the filter and more the media type used,
mechanical filtration uses sponges and pads to catch muck and debris as the water is forced through, a small amount of bacteria will build up but even fine sponges don't have a large surface area (otherwise the water would have difficulty flowing through), although there are carbon sponges they are not as effective as actual chemical filtration (also chemical media needs replacing/recharging monthly which would be quite costly if sponges).
chemical filtration uses media such as activated carbon and zeolite to remove chemical compounds such as chlorine (activated carbon) ammonia (zeolite, but only useful in freshwater) this is why the chemical filtration needs to be removed before any medication is used, activated carbon will also remove tanins, chemical filtration can become part of the bio-filtration if left in past it's useful life cycle so when it is then removed can damage/reduce the bio-filtration so should be replaced monthly, chemical filtration isn't used for muck/debris filtration.
biological filtration uses ceramics, rocks, plastics to house bacteria that consume/convert nitrogen compounds such as ammonia and nitrites, these ceramics etc.. have very fine pockets (bubbles) in them that give them very large surface area for bacteria to grow/colonise, bio-media isn't used for either debris collection (if debris builds up on the media then either the mechanical filtration has failed or the aquarium is way past a water change) or chemical filtration as such chemicals can do major harm to the bacteria colony (one of the reasons it's so important to dechlorinate) biological filtration can also be plants to remove nitrogen compounds.
a lot of internal filters tend to be sponge types, whether that be pump or air driven, these types removes waste but rely upon having a substrate to act as bio-media (or the bio-media used is very small) when sponges are used for bio-media tend to be quite large, hobs tend to bridge the gap between internal and external by allowing for different media types to be used but not in large capacities, with external filters large amounts of different media can be used depending on need.
another point to note is that just because a filter is supplied with a type of media doesn't mean that a different media can't be used instead.
there are other methods of filtration ie.. moving bed, flow etc.. but these aren't seen in small applications.
 

PixieKez

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it isn't so much the filter and more the media type used,
mechanical filtration uses sponges and pads to catch muck and debris as the water is forced through, a small amount of bacteria will build up but even fine sponges don't have a large surface area (otherwise the water would have difficulty flowing through), although there are carbon sponges they are not as effective as actual chemical filtration (also chemical media needs replacing/recharging monthly which would be quite costly if sponges).
chemical filtration uses media such as activated carbon and zeolite to remove chemical compounds such as chlorine (activated carbon) ammonia (zeolite, but only useful in freshwater) this is why the chemical filtration needs to be removed before any medication is used, activated carbon will also remove tanins, chemical filtration can become part of the bio-filtration if left in past it's useful life cycle so when it is then removed can damage/reduce the bio-filtration so should be replaced monthly, chemical filtration isn't used for muck/debris filtration.
biological filtration uses ceramics, rocks, plastics to house bacteria that consume/convert nitrogen compounds such as ammonia and nitrites, these ceramics etc.. have very fine pockets (bubbles) in them that give them very large surface area for bacteria to grow/colonise, bio-media isn't used for either debris collection (if debris builds up on the media then either the mechanical filtration has failed or the aquarium is way past a water change) or chemical filtration as such chemicals can do major harm to the bacteria colony (one of the reasons it's so important to dechlorinate) biological filtration can also be plants to remove nitrogen compounds.
a lot of internal filters tend to be sponge types, whether that be pump or air driven, these types removes waste but rely upon having a substrate to act as bio-media (or the bio-media used is very small) when sponges are used for bio-media tend to be quite large, hobs tend to bridge the gap between internal and external by allowing for different media types to be used but not in large capacities, with external filters large amounts of different media can be used depending on need.
another point to note is that just because a filter is supplied with a type of media doesn't mean that a different media can't be used instead.
there are other methods of filtration ie.. moving bed, flow etc.. but these aren't seen in small applications.
Wow you are really knowledgeable! Thank you so much for sharing 😊
 

Kc0olm

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Hi all! Just thought I’d leave an update- my tank is finally cycled!

In case any future readers are having the same problems as I had I thought I’d share what worked for me.
I had a sponge filter from the start, but I didn’t notice any progress until I set up an Aquaclear HOB filter and put in some used filter sponge from my LFS. Just a couple days after doing that, I began to get small nitrite readings, and then about a week after that ammonia began dropping quickly and nitrite readings climbed much higher. After a while of this (redosing ammonia up to 4ppm and waiting,) I finally got to the point two days ago where 4ppm of ammonia converted to nitrites then nitrates in 24 hr. Peepo is now happy in his much spacier home!

If anybody reading still has questions that I might be able to answer, then feel free to reply here or message me. Thanks so much to everyone who helped me out!
I'm essentially in the same boat - been 4 weeks of dosing with different bacterial products, and the ammonia stays the same - well, maybe small improvements. I'd like you to explain Aquaclear HOB filter a little more - which one? I see a 20 and a 50. Is that the tank size?
 

Kc0olm

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I'm essentially in the same boat - been 4 weeks of dosing with different bacterial products, and the ammonia stays the same - well, maybe small improvements. I'd like you to explain Aquaclear HOB filter a little more - which one? I see a 20 and a 50. Is that the tank size?
Did you keep the sponge filters?
 

Kc0olm

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I'm essentially in the same boat - been 4 weeks of dosing with different bacterial products, and the ammonia stays the same - well, maybe small improvements. I'd like you to explain Aquaclear HOB filter a little more - which one? I see a 20 and a 50. Is that the tank size?
Did you keep the sponge filters?
 

wolfen

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as a rule of thumb when it comes to filters on axolotl tanks always go by the smaller number on the filter capacity, for example the aquaclear 50 is for 20 - 50 gallon, so you can use it for a twenty gallon axolotl tank, this is because the filter has to do all the waste removal and conversion as there is little to no substrate for bacteria to colonise so not only does the filter have to remove waste it has to house all the bacteria, the 50 part would be for tanks that have low waste and high substrate ie.. shrimp tank etc..
 

Kc0olm

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as a rule of thumb when it comes to filters on axolotl tanks always go by the smaller number on the filter capacity, for example the aquaclear 50 is for 20 - 50 gallon, so you can use it for a twenty gallon axolotl tank, this is because the filter has to do all the waste removal and conversion as there is little to no substrate for bacteria to colonise so not only does the filter have to remove waste it has to house all the bacteria, the 50 part would be for tanks that have low waste and high substrate ie.. shrimp tank etc..
I just bought the aquaclear 20 for my 20 long tank? Should I cancel the order and get the 50? Should i leave the sponge filters in there? Is an aquaclear 20 + 2 sponge filters enough to do all the work?
 

wolfen

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if you use the air-sponges for the mechanical side of the filtration ie.. debris/muck removal, then the hob can be adapted for biological filtration by removing the majority of sponge media and replacing with bio-media, this way the hob will deal with the ammonia etc.. and the sponge filters will deal with waste.
remember to clean the air-sponges when they start to get a pinched appearance as this means they are full of muck and filtration will be limited.
 

Kc0olm

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if you use the air-sponges for the mechanical side of the filtration ie.. debris/muck removal, then the hob can be adapted for biological filtration by removing the majority of sponge media and replacing with bio-media, this way the hob will deal with the ammonia etc.. and the sponge filters will deal with waste.
remember to clean the air-sponges when they start to get a pinched appearance as this means they are full of muck and filtration will be limited.
Thanks! I still don't know what "bio media" would be. Assuming the HOB doesn't come with these. If I order them from Amazon, what exactly are they called? I agree with the system you propose, and I am having trouble with getting rid of the ammonia in my first ever tank. So whatever detail you can provide, would be appreciated.
 

wolfen

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the most popular type of bio-media tends to be either ceramic or rock based, these can be anything from ceramic rings or balls to pieces or rock such as alfagrog and pumice.
a lot of popular filter and aquatic treatment manufacturers also produce bio-media, a few of these are ehiem substratpro, fluval bio-fx and biomax, seachem matrix.
if you type bio-media into google search then go to images it will come up with thousands of images of different types that can be used, for a hob filter it would probably be easier with ceramic bio-balls in a mesh bag (to make it easier to remove for maintenance)
 

Kc0olm

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the most popular type of bio-media tends to be either ceramic or rock based, these can be anything from ceramic rings or balls to pieces or rock such as alfagrog and pumice.
a lot of popular filter and aquatic treatment manufacturers also produce bio-media, a few of these are ehiem substratpro, fluval bio-fx and biomax, seachem matrix.
if you type bio-media into google search then go to images it will come up with thousands of images of different types that can be used, for a hob filter it would probably be easier with ceramic bio-balls in a mesh bag (to make it easier to remove for maintenance)
I got the ceramic balls and come charcoal, all in mesh bags. I'd like to see where those go in the HOB. I guess in the place where the sponges are, out of the box? Just take out the sponges, and put in 1,2,3 bags of bio-media?

On a side note, this just really frustrates me - been working on this tank cycle for 4 weeks now. The only ammonia I added was a little fish food, for weeks ago. I was afraid there would not be enough ammonia, so I added a capful of Dr. Tim's shortly thereafter. About two weeks in, I tried Dr. Timm's One and Only. Now that I think of it, I bet there is additional ammonia in the One and Only, right? I can't remember exactly - it seems like initially there were 4 ppm, and I've gotten down to 0.25 ppm - but then it seems to go back up!?! I'm anxious to try the HOB, because the traditional "formula" of adding Seed or Stability seems to do nothing.
 

wolfen

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you don't need to put any charcoal in at the moment, you are right the media in bags go where the sponge media would go (you can quite literally pack the whole compartment with media).
you could still have some fish food still decaying which would cause the ammonia spike. dr tims one and only is nitrifying bacteria and won't contain ammonia.
make sure to keep the water warm, well oxygenated and with a good ph, once you have the hob set up run it for an hour then switch it off, add cap full of bottled bacteria to the filter, leave to settle for half an hour then switch back on, make sure the water has 4ppm ammonia, retest following day then top back up to 4ppm, repeat process till both ammonia and nitrites are both zero then top back up for a further two days to be sure, only do water change it cycle is finished or nitrates are 110ppm or higher, make sure the water is dechlorinated before hand. because you have a partially established bacteria colony in the tank you will only have to wait for it to expand and colonise the hobs bio-media.
 
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