Paramesotriton identification

paris · Jul 22, 2004

i have ones that look alot like that except the skin is less smooth-their bumps are more pointy and they have more red in general on the belly-some even have blotches of brown red on the sides...i should post those too to see what ive got-i dont want to risk a hybrid colony.....those are one tough newt though-if you get one in healthy off the pet trade they are really hearty -it pretty much takes a brick and a hair dryer to kill them..... but i do have some that bully others (so i guess semi aggressive?) and once they go down hill it can be fast......

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

Any guesses as to the species?

I'm inclined to say Paramesotriton guanxiensis, but then the P.g photographed by Ingo and posted at...

http://www.caudata.org/cc/images/species/Paramesotriton/pguanxiensis1VELTUM.jpg

...look more to me like chinensis -- though I don't mean to dispute it.

I have other Paramesotriton that I am pretty sure are chinensis, as well as some others that are different from them but definitely not caudopunctatus or hongkongensis.

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

Paris, using my new powers

I took the liberty of moving your above post over here along with the above pictures from the Photo Gallery. I hope you don't mind...

(Message edited by TJ on July 29, 2004)

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

Here is one (which I'll call "Species A") that I've had for a couple of years now that I've long considered, in the absence of reliable information, to be guanxiensis. It's much smoother, lighter-colored than the above pictured newt (which I'll call "Species B"). Possible regional variation of the same? I simply don't have sufficient knowledge to make an informed guess as to what it is. It's so much easier determining what it's not

(all 5 pics are of the same newt)

(Message edited by tj on July 29, 2004)

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

Here is a similar set of pics for Species B (same as pictured at the top of this page). Check out the amazing ripples on its dorsum in the 4th pic!

(all pics are of the same newt)

(Message edited by tj on July 30, 2004)

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

Tomorrow, if I can get around to it, I'll post a similar set of pics of my P.chinensis (Species C for the purposes of this discussion), about which there's little as to their identification. I'll follow up with P.caudopunctatus (lets say Species D), about which there is zero doubt

(Message edited by tj on July 30, 2004)

TJ · Jul 29, 2004

It's not yet tomorrow, but here are the P.chinensis anyway:

(all pics are of the same newt)

paris · Jul 29, 2004

yeah i always thought one of the identifiers for chinensis was that the undertail colour was a much darker colour -like red compared to the yellow /orange of the belly. i only have 3 like that and i keep them together -the rest are iffy in identification-i need to post them to get them id' some of mine even have brown patches on the back.

TJ · Jul 30, 2004

Thanks for the input, Paris. I really want to start nailing Paramesotriton down. What is the most authoritative document around? I have a couple of documents already but nothing that really lays it all out. I have a Chinese-language report, if that's any help

TJ · Jul 30, 2004

Species D -- undoubtedly P.caudopunctatus:

(photos are all of same newt)

paris · Jul 30, 2004

that is DEFINITELY a female! got any friends to go with her? i dont know if you know or not but chinensis are here on the market, they are common enough but sporadic on sales lists. there must be a new highly prized version of them out there though cause they just went up in price by about 10x! normally they are sold as mislabeled fire bellies at about 4-6$ and i have paid up to 14$ for one i really liked -but they are on websites now for 40$ each -and that is w/o shipping! since the labeling at many dealers is pretty bad i am wondering if i should ask for photos -who knows what they really have.

TJ · Jul 30, 2004

Yep, she's a she. The males I've got have very different belly coloration and, of course, the spots on the tails that are absent in females.

$4? That's insane. Paramesotriton also can sell in Japan for as much as $40, and I've never seen them below $20, except for hongkongensis. Sorry to say I know of nobody here captive-breeding them in significant numbers. If I had my way, all caudates would be retailed at over $30 (like they pretty much are here except for Cynops), Then mainly people who are really committed would buy them, they would be treated like an investment, there would be fewer impulse buys and there'd be a reduction in the numbers caught and sold. Wishful thinking...

(Message edited by TJ on July 30, 2004)

chris · Jul 30, 2004

The most I've payed for paramesotriton was £15, and that was extortionate in comparison to the normal £6...
I agree with Tim cost-wise now I am a fairly experienced 'newtist', but if it weren't for cheap prices of Paramesotriton, I wouldn't be keeping newts now...
I have a couple of species which, like yours, I haven't got a clue what they are, and only have one of each of them (my local herp shop only special orders newts as they know cheap prices increase impulse buying). One layed an egg, which is now almost ready to morph, so I'm hoping its a male, so in 4-6 years I can try to breed them...
There are also two populations of Chinensis - a coastal and inland populkation. One is dark, almost black, and one is smother and coloured like Tim's...
Chris

paris · Jul 30, 2004

yeah tim-i got mine at the price of chinese fire bellies a year and half back -14 newts total -those were just the ones i hand picked-there were about 10 more in there. i have lost only 2 since then and it wasnt just the chinensis in there -there were 3 caudos -the 1.2 i currently have...i guess i lucked out? bummer is i have 2 males to 7 female ratio-so those boys are a valued asset right now!

on the caudo of yours tim -the biggest give away to me is the shape of the vent (otherwise it could be a young male) -that 'volcano' shape usually accompanies egg deposition but my females have been like that for months and the male has been courting ..still i have seen no evidence of eggs...perhaps the easter bunny hid them?

TJ · Jul 30, 2004

Chris, you only have one of each of them but they bred for you? Or was it gravid when you bought it?

As for prices, even a kid, if he really wanted to keep a newt or salamander bad enough, could earn $20-30 to buy a newt. I easily earned that much 30 years ago -- be it from raking leaves, shoveling snow, cutting lawns, delivering newspapers or selling Kool-Aid. It's sad, but animals tend to be treated commensurate with the price they were bought for. I'm less worried about animal dealers making a profit than I am about the sale of massive numbers of cheaply priced newts that end up being bought on a whim.

(Message edited by TJ on July 30, 2004)

TJ · Jul 30, 2004

Can anybody scan and send the following article to me? :

Wen, Yetang. 1989. A new species of Paramesotriton (Amphibia: Caudata) from Guangxi and a comparison with P. guangxiensis. Chinese Herpetological Research. 2 (1): 15-20.

paris · Jul 30, 2004

tim-
your price comments reflect mine but others have pointed out to me that that would only increase wild collection for profit since they would make more and very easily compared to captive breeders. i am always willing to pay more for healthier well cared for or hand picked animals - but this position puts some on edge.....

p.s. i wish i had a good clear plexiglass contianer like that so i could take clearer pictures - my current photo shooting containers give a blueish tint if taken in sunlight......well then again having a camera like yours would probably help too.....

(Message edited by paris on July 30, 2004)

chris · Jul 30, 2004

Tim,
is this paper the one on P. fuzhongensis? I can get you that, but you will prpbably have to wait till I get back from my hols...
The female I got was , I think, right at the end of her breeding cycle. She looks very similar to your animal in pics 8 - 11. She was doing a lot of 'false alarm' egg-laying behaviour, but only 1 egg was laid. He (here's hoping) morphed today. My Tylototriton verrucosus also layed a clutch of eggs...probably the worst timing ever - I go away tomorrow.
My P. fuzhongensis (fit description in paper exactly) are doing some of this behaviour, so that will hopefully be followed by egg-laying...more 'wonderful' timing...

Re the newt prices - I hate to say this, but my first newt was an impulse buy....

Chris

(Message edited by froggy on July 30, 2004)

Paramesotriton identification

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