Stressed/sick?

Della · Sep 12, 2009

Hi all,

The plight of my little one has seemed to take a strange turn. Firstly some background (my apologies for the long post, but I thought I'd give as much info as possible):

I posted on here some time ago about some abnormal growth on her gills and gill loss. Following some sound advice from Rayson and others, I administered 3 days of salt baths and fridging. This did not seem to help, so I bit the bullet and took her to the local herp vet. After a microscopic gill examination, the vet concluded that she had a heap of bacteria growing between her fimbriae and gave me Baytril. I administered the baytil via injection into worms and left her in the fridge for 2 weeks. I then put her back in the tank and continued the antibiotics for an additional week. To be honest, I don't know how effective I was at administering the antibiotics for the first 2 weeks, as I was having great difficulty at injecting the worms. Once I got the hang of it, and following some more sound advice from Rayson, it worked really well.
She seemed fine for 3-4 weeks, but then I noticed the growth again. I took her back to the vet, where he again checked her gills. He said that he wasn't sure about the growth, as it looked like dead skin, but there was still bacteria between her fimbriae. I explained that I wasn't too sure about how effective I was with the injection, so he gave me a fresh vile of Baytril, which I was to continue for another 3 weeks.

In the first week, the growth stopped appearing and she seemed better. However, after that, I noticed her gills were looking a bit smaller and she was floating a lot. I attributed the floating to the fact that she was getting fed 1-2 worms a day, as this is what was required to administer the antibiotics, and therefore, she may have been constipated or gassy. I started to skip a day of feeding/ab here and there, which seemed to help.

For the last week and a half, she has been constantly sitting next to the filter in the corner of the tank. I have an Eheim internal 2010 with a bubbler to aid aeration. I have always been wary of the flow it creates, but it hasn't really been an issue, as she has never exhibited any signs of stress. I have also noticed that when she isn't near the filter, she tends to gulp air a lot, suggesting to me that she is sitting there for the increased o2 content, but that could just be paranoia on my part. She doesn’t gulp air at all when next to the filter, so I'm not sure if there is anything wrong with her gills or not.
I think she has lost weight, even though she is getting fed everyday, and today I noticed that she is shedding and her tail was curled.
I've also noticed a large lump above each of her rear legs. The vet sexed her as female, so I'm guessing they arn't gentials, and they seem too high anyway.

Does anyone have any ideas?? Does she look healthy? (See attached)
Could her gills be shrinking because she has chosen to sit in the most oxygen-rich part of the tank?
I also have a tribe of planaria growing in the tank, could they be contributing?
I am going overseas on Monday for 2 weeks and am leaving my little brother in charge of feeding her, so I was thinking that I'd better get on top of it before I go. I'm going to change 16L of water tomorrow.

Tank parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20 - 40ish
pH: 6.4
Temp: 20 (it has been the hottest day in Melbourne for about 6 months, so this may be contributing)
Tank is 60cmx30x30 (~50L)
Sand as substrate
Water changes - 8L per week, 16L every 3 weeks or as needed

Any advice would be extremely helpful!!!!!!

Cheers

Paul

PatricALOTL · Sep 12, 2009

For the last week and a half, she has been constantly sitting next to the filter in the corner of the tank. I have an Eheim internal 2010 with a bubbler to aid aeration. I have always been wary of the flow it creates, but it hasn't really been an issue, as she has never exhibited any signs of stress. I have also noticed that when she isn't near the filter, she tends to gulp air a lot, suggesting to me that she is sitting there for the increased o2 content, but that could just be paranoia on my part. She doesn’t gulp air at all when next to the filter, so I'm not sure if there is anything wrong with her gills or not.
I think she has lost weight, even though she is getting fed everyday, and today I noticed that she is shedding and her tail was curled.
I've also noticed a large lump above each of her rear legs. The vet sexed her as female, so I'm guessing they arn't gentials, and they seem too high anyway.

HI....

When i first read this i couldnt believe how similar my axxie has been acting....
I have a female wild-type Axie, that has been sitting around the filter in the corner of the tank for about a week and a half maybe as much as 2 weeks...

I didnt think much of it, as she likes to sit around on the top of the plants, and i thought that maybe she feels this is a good place to 'park'...but shes also been gulping air and then floating a bit, and only slowly and gradually making it back down to the bottom of the tank....
I also noticed that she seems to be quite thin, but she hasnt lost appetite, ...i thought maybe i wasnt feeding her enough...so ive only just started feeding her until she feels full, and ignores the food.
I ALSO noticed some lumps above her back legs, ...but their not 'male' bumps, their strange, they're just a couple of odd bumps on her + shes been shedding a bit, ..i havent noticed a curled tail at all though... about 4 days ago i put her in the fridge along with doing salt baths.....
i took her out today and let her back into her home tank because she seemed alot better (she wasnt sheddiing anymore)...

As for all this weird behaviour im just as worried and confused as you......sorry i couldnt really help, but i thought it'd be good to let you know, that another axie is acting EXACTLY the same, in a weird way, involving a filter????????????

HELP PLEASE?????? WE'RE STUCK

Darkmaverick · Sep 12, 2009

Try to keep water temperature down as much as you can.

Do you have any plug in air diffusers in the house such as those for fragrance or rid mosquitoes etc? I have seen at least 5 or 6 cases where axies present with 'bumps' on their skin and even rapidly develop skin sloughing. The common thing i noticed that was all these axies were placed in a tank near a diffuser or in a household where aerosols are being used near the tank. I hypothesize that the micro aero particles of chemicals are sufficient to trigger a response to the delicate axie skin. If you use aerosols or plug in diffusers, try completely removing them and see if there is any improvement.

Can you zoom in and take close up photos of the gills, the 'lumps' as well as skin sloughing and tail tip?

Della · Sep 12, 2009

Prolapse!!!

Development......

I just checked the and noticed that she had a prolapsed cloaca. I then proceeded to freak out and check the forum for what to do. I figured I'd try to take a picture to post, but when I looked back it was gone!!!!! It looked like a small bubble hanging out. She then did a small poo and seems o.k now.

Does this happen often?? Should I still be rushing her to the vet?? What should I do?

Could the lumps that PatricALOTL and I have been seeing a pre-cursor for a prolapse??

PatricALOTL · Sep 12, 2009

im able to keep the water temp as low as 14/15 degrees, but sometimes its at about 17...

there is no air diffusers near the tank at all, or in any other rooms, near the tank...and i never spray any deodrants either (although in the bathroom, which is across from my room??hmmmm)

***i noticed since putting my axxie back in her tank that she has what looks like a double chin, then she flicks her gills, and it goes away....but then it forms back into a double chin again, then she flicks her gills....and it continues like this.....she only just was put back into her tank a few hours ago, since being in the fridge and getting salt baths, for what i thought was a fungus/bacteria (the peeling skin)......and shes alot looking better....in the last few hours, ..she has not floated at all or sat on any plants, just hung out down the bottom, wandering around...

are the little bumps bad do you think.....do they have any link, to the floating or the funny gill flicking double-chin-ness
im unable to take any photos until tomorrow, so until thennnn.....??

Della · Sep 12, 2009

Thanks Ray,

See the attached pics for the bumps/gills. Her tank is in my room, so she would get the odd exposure to aerosols, but I'm pretty mindful of things going in the tank (I cover the tank with a towel when vacuuming), so it would only be minimal. No diffusers.
I've got iceblocks in their now, but I doubt that the temperature has anything to do with the lumps, as they have been there for weeks, although it probably wouldn't help.
Her tail tip is now straight and she's floating again!

Darkmaverick · Sep 12, 2009

Patricalotl - I suspect your axie has stomatitis. A bacterial infection in the mouth. All axies with stomatitis will invariably have a 'frog throat'. It is an inflammation and swelling in the oral mucosa. Sometimes lumps will appear closely associated with joints. Although not always the case, some cases of bacteria infection can also lead to joint inflammation. The hind limb joints are particulary suspectible because of the potential space. Is your axie puffed out or appear swollen anywhere else on the body? I want to rule out early onset of bloat. I recommend you bring your axie to a vet for a course of antibiotics. Fridging is good but salt baths are necessary.

Della - It cannot be prolapse. I suspect it might be partially undigested matter or shedding skin. Prolapses are an emergency and cannot resolve spontaneously overnight. It is basically a herniation/eventration that requires surgical correction. Lumps on the back/hips are not a precursor to prolapse. They could however indicate possible ongoing bacterial infection. I suspect the lumps you saw are joint inflammation. Some axies get a fluid buildup and swollen joints (much like arthritis) from bacteria infection or from immune response. I think your axie either hasn't fully recovered or it has a secondary infection that enroflocaxin cannot effectively treat. The gills are certainly shivelled but there are no visible signs of fungus, bacterial infection or parasites. Due to the shrunken gills, there is oxygen exchange compromise. I really recommend you refridge your axie. That will prevent it floating and also provide more oxygen.

PatricALOTL · Sep 12, 2009

I've refridged my axie this morning,... i have taken ownership of the bar fridge so i can keep them in there for as long as they need....

i had a good look at her, the lumps she has above her back legs are symetrical....(possibly a fluid build up, inflammation of the joints???)

she isnt puffed up or swollen anywhere else, and it doesnt look like she has a 'frog mouth' anymore...

im going to start with a salt bath this afternoon, ... and do them twice a day to see if it helps...

Im going to call the vet tomorrow and see if they deal with amphibians...there is quite a few in the area, so surely one of them will....

ive attached some pics of the lumps, her gills and also a picture from last night when she had the funny frog mouth (its a pretty bad shot, because it was taken with my camera phone late at night)...
she definetly isnt swollen or puffy anywhere else though....

Darkmaverick · Sep 13, 2009

Yes im pretty sure its stomatitis. It needs antibiotics. Refer to this list.

http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/vets.shtml

PatricALOTL · Sep 13, 2009

Firstly i'd just like to thank you soooooo much for your help!!!!! its deeply deeply appreciated!!!!

i looked through that list of vets that you posted, ..and unfortunately none of them are in my area,... although im going to ring around to a number of vets in the area and find out if they are able to treat my axie for Stomatitis...

Although i might not be able to get her to a vet until wed/thursday, will it help to give her salt baths and fridge her until then???

once again thank you soooooo muchhhhh, you are true LEGEND!!!

!!!

Della i hope you can find out whats wrong with your poor little axie, hopefully its not bloat

Della · Oct 5, 2009

Hi guys,

I have returned from overseas and unfortunately come home to my axolotl in a worse condition. Following Rayson's advice, I fridged her on the day before i left. My little brother did a fantastic job of looking after her during her fridging, however, she has taken a turn for the worse.
Her gills do not seem to have improved, if anything they have worsened.
She has lost considerable weight and is now struggling to keep food down. She may have eaten 3 times in the last week. I know that eating generally tends to slow while in the fridge, however, her appetite was unaffected on the other occasions that she was in there, so I think this is significant symptom. She happily attacks the worm, however, she struggles to keep it in her mouth and eventually spits it out.
To make matters worse, I just returned from the vet. He weighed her and, as expected, she is down 16g (25% of her bodyweight) since her last visit. He wasn't to concerned about the lumps above her legs, suggesting that they were her hips and that they are protruding due to her weight loss. He had a feel of her abdomin and couldn't really find anything out of the ordinary. He then concluded that she may have some underlying disease that was causing her symptoms and he suggested a stronger antibiotic. Here is where is gets frustrating..... he gave me Vibravet and also suggested that I dose the tank with Melafix and/or Pimafix.

After some investigation on this forum and the web on my return home, I found out that VibraVet contains doxycycline, which is not appropriate for axolotls, and the use of Melafix and/or Pimafix is also controversial. I suppose I can dose the tank while she is in the fridge, so it won't do her any harm, but I am unsure now.

I'm really lost as what to do next. Do I leave her in the fridge and hope for the best?? Is there something else I should be doing??

Any help would be really appreciated!

Cheers

Paul

Darkmaverick · Oct 5, 2009

Hi Paul,

Whereabouts are you in Australia? If you are in Sydney, i will happily take a look at your axie pro bono.

Ok personally this is how how i would go about this. It is a bit different to your current treatment plan.

- Nutrition -

If your axie is still eating, its a good sign. Offer plenty of live earthworms, blackworms and prawn bits. You can also mash them up and make little balls of mash. That would be easier to digest yet packed full of nutrients. Try small volumes of feeding frequently, even daily at this stage if your axie still attempts to feed.

- Environment -

How are the parameters in your current tank? Was the water in the tub changed daily? If so, do you have a wine chiller or could possibly adjust your fridge temperature a bit? I was thinking of increasing the temperature to around 12-13 degree celsius. At this temperature, axies can keep food down better without regurgitation, yet cool enough to heal and regenerate quite comfortably albeit a little slower. If you have a tank chiller, it is also possibly better to put the axie back in the main tank provided the temperature can be kept quite cool (12-15 degrees).

I think being fridged throughout may be whats keeping the axie even surviving through this period.

- Vet support -

I would go with providing supplementary fluid, vitamins, electrolyte support. There are special formulations that can injected into axies to provide these nutrients. Axies can be left to bath in amphibian ringers solution. That would help regulate the fluid balance.

Alternatively you can also administer calcium gluconate baths. They can be easily given in a bath and can also help support by providing electrolytes and energy.

In addition, i would consider either doing a faecal float to check for internal parasites or single trial fenbendazole/metronidazole therapy. That would eliminate internal parasites as a cause of the poor body condition.

I think the reason why your vet suggested vibravet (doxycycline) was to eradicate resistant microbes such as the mycobacteria. Mycobacteria can remain latent and asymptomatic (carriers) or flare up and cause chronic wasting. The downside is tetracyclines (doxy is a tetracycline group) can cause quite bad skin irritation and sloughing, unless you give very calculated doses. It can be quite a challenge because you want to balance minimise side effects with efficacy against the microbes.

Personally i would not use melafix or primafix. They are ok if its a slight skin type condition but i find them less effective for systemic illnesses. The drug cannot effectively reach effective MIC concentration in the blood stream. Even if you want to use melafix or primafix, you have to dose them in a separate tub and not in your main tank.

In terms of antibiotic choice, i would tend to go with injectable gentamicin in this case. Most axie bacteria types are gram-negative and gentamicin is quite effective against most of them.

Della · Oct 6, 2009

Thanks again for you invaluable help, see comments/queries below:

Darkmaverick said:
Hi Paul,

Whereabouts are you in Australia? If you are in Sydney, i will happily take a look at your axie pro bono.

Thanks for the kind offer mate, but i am in Melbourne.

Ok personally this is how how i would go about this. It is a bit different to your current treatment plan.

- Nutrition -

If your axie is still eating, its a good sign. Offer plenty of live earthworms, blackworms and prawn bits. You can also mash them up and make little balls of mash. That would be easier to digest yet packed full of nutrients. Try small volumes of feeding frequently, even daily at this stage if your axie still attempts to feed.

She ate an earthworm just before, so things are looking up. However, it took her about 10 minutes to keep it down. I'm also going to invest in some blackworms.

- Environment -

How are the parameters in your current tank?

The last time I checked the water parameters was just before my original post (3 weeks ago):
Tank parameters:
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 20 - 40ish
pH: 6.4
I haven't checked them again, as she hasn't been in there, nor have I changed the water since I have been back, so I'm guessing the Nitrate would be through the roof. I'm planning on doing a 50% water change in the next couple of days and giving it a good clean out (i.e rinse the filter, churn up the sand to remove debris ect.) Is there anything else you would recommend?

Was the water in the tub changed daily? If so, do you have a wine chiller or could possibly adjust your fridge temperature a bit? I was thinking of increasing the temperature to around 12-13 degree celsius. At this temperature, axies can keep food down better without regurgitation, yet cool enough to heal and regenerate quite comfortably albeit a little slower. If you have a tank chiller, it is also possibly better to put the axie back in the main tank provided the temperature can be kept quite cool (12-15 degrees).

The water in her container gets changed every 22-24 hours and the water is made fresh every 2 days. I do not have a chiller, so the fridge will have to do. I have increased the temperature of the fridge, however, it will take a while to reach the ideal temp. Current temp is 5.6.
Given the increased temperature, and the subsequent increase in metabolism, is it necessary to increase the frequency of water changes? Considering that ammonia will probably increase in the water and become more toxic?

I think being fridged throughout may be whats keeping the axie even surviving through this period.

- Vet support -

I would go with providing supplementary fluid, vitamins, electrolyte support. There are special formulations that can injected into axies to provide these nutrients. Axies can be left to bath in amphibian ringers solution. That would help regulate the fluid balance.

Alternatively you can also administer calcium gluconate baths. They can be easily given in a bath and can also help support by providing electrolytes and energy.

In addition, i would consider either doing a faecal float to check for internal parasites or single trial fenbendazole/metronidazole therapy. That would eliminate internal parasites as a cause of the poor body condition.

The above suggestions are great, do you suggest I take them to my vet, or can I get ringers sol and/or calcium gluconate myself? I'm not sure that I am really comfortable telling my vet what to do.

I think the reason why your vet suggested vibravet (doxycycline) was to eradicate resistant microbes such as the mycobacteria. Mycobacteria can remain latent and asymptomatic (carriers) or flare up and cause chronic wasting. The downside is tetracyclines (doxy is a tetracycline group) can cause quite bad skin irritation and sloughing, unless you give very calculated doses. It can be quite a challenge because you want to balance minimise side effects with efficacy against the microbes.

The dose the gave me was 0.025ml of Vibravet-100 2.5Gm paste. Do you suggest I take the risk and try this?

Personally i would not use melafix or primafix. They are ok if its a slight skin type condition but i find them less effective for systemic illnesses. The drug cannot effectively reach effective MIC concentration in the blood stream. Even if you want to use melafix or primafix, you have to dose them in a separate tub and not in your main tank.

In terms of antibiotic choice, i would tend to go with injectable gentamicin in this case. Most axie bacteria types are gram-negative and gentamicin is quite effective against most of them.

Darkmaverick · Oct 7, 2009

Your nutrition and tank maintenance plan are all good. Should be ok.

Even at 8 or 10 degree celsius, the metabolism of the axie is still on the low side and shouldn't contribute to a sharp exponential increase in waste products. It would however, still assist with healing and yet at the same time permit a slightly faster digestion rate. Daily water changes will suffice. Do remove all detritus and uneaten food though.

You can suggest to your vet that you done some research online or through some literature that suggest using amphian ringers and calcium gluconate to supplement and be a part of the treatment plan together. I guess its the way the idea is conveyed. Most vets will happily research and work together with the client since ultimately the common goal is a healthy pet. If your vet assess the situation and feels that the ideas are not feasible, he or she can also advise why.

With the doxycycline, i personally have not used them on axies. Perhaps you can PM herpvet (Bruce) and seek his opinions on it. With antibiotics, the difficulty is balancing the efficacy while minimising side effects. Amphibians are quite sensitive and react quite differently to most other species so i would recommend that you express your concern and again work with your vet on a plan.

Della · Oct 8, 2009

Just cleaned out her water and she seems to have pooped some undigested worm!!!!!!!

How bad is this??

Darkmaverick · Oct 8, 2009

Could the worm be regurgitated? If you see definite evidence of poop, its a good sign. It is very rare for a completed undigested worm to come out the other end.

Della · Oct 8, 2009

There is definate signs that she is still digesting, however, there was also undigested worm in the container. It may have been regurgitated, but it seemed to be partially digested. Not sure which end it came out of!!!

Della · Nov 3, 2009

Howdy all,

Just thought I'd give you guys an update and seek your opinions on my current course of action.

My little one is still in the fridge and has been for about 5 weeks. her health hadn't really improved, so I took Rayson's advice and took her the vet about a week ago.
I took the previous posts in with me and the vet and I discussed possible treatments.

The vet didn't really know about providing additional nutrition (ringers sol/calcium gluconate), so we didn't really act on that. He did administer an oral dose of one of the anti-parasitic medications (fenbendazole/metronidazole), so we ticked that box.
The vet also gave her a shot of gentamicin. He was going to give me some to inject myself at home every 3 days, but I wasn't comfortable giving her the injections, so we decided to leave her with the 1 injection and the parasitic meds and just monitor her progress.
I figured that if she showed improvement and continued improving, the anti-parasitic medication may have worked. If she showed improvement then declined again, it would probably be the gentamicin working, in which case I would have gone back to the vet and started injections.

I has now been a week, and she has showed little if any improvement. She seems to be a little more active (she really attacked the worm), but no improvement in gills and she still seems to shedding a lot of skin.
Her feeding habits are quite varied. She quite often takes the worm, but the next day I find she has regurgitated it. Some days she keeps it down and others she refuses to eat. The only positive is that her weight hadn't changed since the last vet visit.
I have tried feeding her blackworms, but she finds them difficult to catch.

Any ideas on the next course of action?

Ray, you mentioned trying prawn bits. Is there any specific brand that is formulated for amphibians or are any prawns good?

Cheers

Paul

Darkmaverick · Nov 3, 2009

Behaviour wise, i actually think your axie is improving. Sick axies rarely even bother to attempt feeding. Voraciously attacking a worm is a sign that your axie is actually getting better.

Most often, behaviour signs are seen before outward visible improvement.

The medication seem fine. It takes a while for gills to recover.

You can just dice up any raw fresh prawns for human consumption and try feeding them.

Darkmaverick · Nov 4, 2009

When you mentioned the axie has difficulty 'catching' blackworms, how are you actually feeding the blackworms?

Blackworms tend to just clump together in a writhing lump and most axies will munch on them like noodles. They are easily consumed simply because they are a soft heap of worms that with each mouthful will lead to some worms inevitably consumed.

You can just place the entire clump of blackworms in a bare bottomed tub to feed the axie. I hope you are not feeding individual blackworms...

Stressed/sick?

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