Who is keeping <i>H. dunni </i>?

I am currently working on the studbook of Hynobius dunni for the upcoming Gersfeld meeting.
At this moment I am counting 249 animals over 25 keepers... which seems fine. But I also know that some specimens have changed places maybe with people that are not included in the studbook.
Anybody that keeps this species and is willing to have his animals included in the studbook can either post his info here or mail me personally.
The idea is to have an overview of how this species is doing under captive conditions and if we are succesfull keeping this species (I think we surely are in this one... knowing that it started with 10 animals)

Hi Henk,

at www.marktplaats.nl and salamanderforum.tk somebody is offering 3 dunni's.. maybe it is interesting to ask him how he got them..

Gr Rob

Hai Rob, I have contacted the person and hope he will reply. I guess these are animals of people that have quit keeping this species, which by the way is getting more endangered and after the label 'rare' it is now labelled 'vulnerable'. According to IUCN their life habitat is but 500 square kilometers. Imagine that's only 50 km long on 10 km wide, that's even little for a little country like Belgium

So our efforts to maintain them alive under captive conditions have sense... but unfortunatelly the numbers even seem to drop under captive conditions. Breeding success apart my own are being very scarce and I don' see why : I have written down everything how I did it and explained it multiple times in the meetings...
I only hope that this has nothing to do with chytrid infections , like some people fear they told me. One of them has entered some specimens for research (he lost mutliple species at once).

At the current state it looks like we lost 36 animals of the studbook. Also this is the first year in which my animals didn't breed (the same story with my longtoeds....)

Here are some links to the status of the species:

http://www.redlist.org/search/details.php?species=10614

(Message edited by TJ on October 07, 2005)

Admirable work, Henk!

Sorry but I deleted the first of the two links you gave as it was so long that it pushed the page off center, making it difficult to read.

To access the same link as Henk gave, one can go to: http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA

...and type into the box there: Hynobius dunni

By the way, for some pictures of H. dunni and its habitat, visit this new site put together by my Japanese friend Pato:

http://www3.kitanet.ne.jp/~hynobius/ooitasannshouuo.htm

The main entrance to the site <u>pato's Tailed Amphibians room</u> is here:

http://www3.kitanet.ne.jp/~hynobius/index.html

Henk, I don't know if you want to include me in your studbook since I'm in Japan, but if so, I keep 5 juveniles and 5 adults (the two groups are unrelated), if my count is correct. Here is an up-to-date picture of the juveniles:

Tim, how could I not include you ... I consider you to be as much as my hynobius buddy

Thus I will gladly include you and keep you informed on the studbook and totals (down do 225 anmials without yours at the moment).

I have five adults/subadults (offspring from yours) though you may have already included me.
Chris

http://www.dartfrog.co.uk breed them, you might want to get in touch with them if you haven't already.

Hello Henk!

The person you contacted, Matthijs. Does he still have his H. dunni's? Otherwise I'm willing to start up a breeding culture as I have the time and the resources to spare. So you see, the interest of Hynobius in Europe just increased by one person: An Asian

Greetings,
Terry

I would encourage anybody interested in keeping Hynobiids to start out with H. dunni (Oita Salamander), though H. retardatus (Ezo Salamander) is another favorite of mine (and Henk's!) along with H. nebulosus (Clouded Salamander).

The easiest to raise and to breed (though I have no experience with this yet) are the lentic breeders (including all those just mentioned), the ones that lay their twin egg sacs in still water and the ones that you are far more likely to come across over there in Europe -- for good reason!

The lotic breeders, the ones that typically dwell and breed in and around cold mountain streams, are much more delicate and heat-sensitive, and I know of nobody who has bred them successfully in captivity -- though I'm pretty sure somebody somewhere has...

If you compare H. dunni with say H. tokyoensis, both lentic breeders, you will find that H. dunni is considerably larger in the larvae to sub-adult stages, much hardier, much easier to feed (think tiger salamander! ), and less skittish. All in all, a much more pleasant experience. H. retardatus is the same, and even less skittish in my experience.

I keep H. tokyoensis since it's my local sal, but I really can't see this animal becoming popular in the hobby overseas, other than for the fact that it lays such interesting egg sacs if one is experienced enough or lucky enough to breed it. It's a very plain Hynobiid, one without many endearing qualities, IMHO.

Well let me comment on this a bit more. Dunni is indeed very hardy. retardatus as adults are not that diffcult either but their behaviour is different. I call this species my plethodont hynobius. Where other jueniles go under the ground these ones really like to sit up out in the open and they are climbing much more then the other species. With lentic, tim is referring to pond type breeders (as I call them). Another fairly easy species is Hynobius leechii quelpartensis, which has been bred by many people already (I think at least about 3 this year...).
So fvar I have succeeded breeding & rearing in H. dunni, retardatus, leechii quelpartensis, nebulosus, tokyoensis & lichenatus. Of the other pondtype animals I unfortunatelly have no full breeding groups; for instance with H. nigresecens where I only have 2 animals healthy animals. I fear chances are little for me to have a couple.
So far I have bred all pond type hynobius of which I have full breeding groups (which tells more about the animals sturdy ness then my efforts )

For what streambreeding animals are concerned I have had eggsacs in H. okiensis (but all I have are females.. I lack a male)and also in H. yiwuensis. I am currently busy trying to build up streambreeding groups for H.kimurae & also would love to thave more H. naevius. This last species is also very colored species which I would really like to attempt breeding. My H; kimurae do not look like those which Tim posted; they are more brown. So far the streambreeding species seem to do very well overhere (we do not have such high peaks as in Japan) and they have prooven to be remarkably strong (kimurae, boulengeri, tsuensis, naevius). For H. tsuensis I have 4 animals. I sincerally hope to be able to breed this species some day ...

One of the challenges in this animals is to have enough animals so you can build up breeding groups. I sure would love to have but one streambreeding group over splintered solitary animals in different species, but I got to take what comes in... not seing many hynobius in the pettrade is also a good thing though, this means that they are staying where they should (in nature) and given they do not waste the habitat (the weak point I fear) things are ok .

Also breeding streambreeding hynobidae is not a gift...I need to find some more of the triggers and will probably have to invest in a cooling device of some sort.

This year at Gersfeld I heard of other people breeding H. leechii & also H. tokyoensis. So the are coming up. On the other hand now in China 3 new Hynobius species seem to have been discovered.

Challenges for the coming year (want to breed) is : tsuensis and trying to extend my streambreeding species (kimurae &naevius... since okiensis is critically endangered I fear those will remain unfortunate solitary females)

Hello Henk and Tim!
One of the reasons why I find Hynobius interesting because they are the closest an asian can get to a Plethodontid. The Hynobius and Cynops of Japan have always beenmy target species to rear and study. Its a pity that Malaysia posses no native caudates in its forests.

I'm still researching on ripariums and am designing an enclosure to match a brook or a stream. Hopefully I'll get lucky next year for starting my studies on Hynobius.

Hi Terry. My point above was that you'd probably be better off starting out with pond-type ("lentic") Hynobiids that wouldn't require replicating a brook or stream They don't require specialized ripariums. Just nice and clean moss, maybe some shelter areas. And then being switched in the early Spring to a semi-aquatic environment with sufficient water depth and twigs and branches for breeding and egg sac deposition (well, there's obviously more to it than that...).

Then again, I don't know anything at all about Plethodontids. Are they stream-dwellers/breeders? If so, then of course you're welcome to try your luck with "lotic-breeding" Hynobiids.

These terms "lotic" and "lentic" are bandied about a lot in Japan...

(Message edited by TJ on October 22, 2005)

Well I've seen plethodonts in nature Terry and have quite a different life style. I compare hynobidae more with mole salamanders. The parameters for keeping them are very close to one another. I would also agree with tim that starting off with pondtypes might be the best step... also streamtype are not readyly avaiable and buidling breeding groups with such species is through this reason rather difficult.

Leechi is also a good one to start of from that side, since it actually has some features from streambreeders (setting off eggs on stones) but actually has more features of a pondtype.

Hello again Tim.

Yes you are correct. H. dunni is most certainly the candidate for "lentic". For this there is a terrarium being set up which would mimic the environment H dunni lives in.

As far as the Riparium goes, I have had experience with Pachytriton while i lived in Malaysia and was wondering if I could adapt such a setup to accomodate "lotic-breeding" Hynobiids.

Then again who in Europe carries "lotic"Hynobiids? ( looks at Henk with puppy eyes). I do not forsee myself starting up big which usually consists of several individuals per species. I'm starting out with observation of behaviour before taking the next step of breeding.

Tim, one more thing: When I mentioned Plethodontids, I mentioned them in regards to species morphology/similarity in shape or likeness though not neccesarily ecological similarities. For me Hynobiids are the asian equivalent of a Plethodontid.

(Message edited by terryschild on October 22, 2005)

Ahh Henk!
You were a few minutes earlier than me!
Well in my edited post, I redefined my reference to Plethodontids qua physical likeness and not ecological similarities. But then again you are right. The Hynobiids do resemble Ambystomatids in many respects. Perhaps I should liken them to Ambistomatidae rather than Plethodontidae!

Very well, pond types shall be the first candidates for my study, though I would like to try a stream type. I am designing a long tank which would hopefully mimic a brook. Such a project was possible when I lived in Malaysia. I constructed an artificial stream where the water circulates in such a manner that it mimics a brook or mountain stream. I hope to adapt it's design to a long tank. I guess that in itself will take some trial and error.

But first I'm off to do an extensive research of their needs before setting the theory into practice!

Greetings,
Terry

(Message edited by terryschild on October 22, 2005)

Hi Terry, well as far as a terrarium setup goes, I don't know whether you need go to a lot of trouble trying to mimic the environment H. dunni lives in because aside from the problem of finding that out without actually going there and seeing it at firsthand, the captive requirements for this species are pretty simple. I just keep my juvies in a tank with long flat rocks stacked up on each other, forming nooks & crannies to hide in and overhangs to hide under, and lots and lots of moss. Every couple of weeks or so, I remove the rocks and use a showerhead to spray down moss and rocks in the tank, animals often intact. Clean water in, dirty water out. I feed them on crickets and wax worms. Very low maintenance. I don't take any chances with high temperatures. The room never gets above 24 C. With my mature H. dunni, I use soil in the tank and remove the moss to rinse it. Every few months, they all get fresh moss.



Also, as far as doing extensive research of their needs goes, I really doubt you'll find much in English about them, sorry to say, Check out Henk's writings on the subject while you're at it. There's plenty written in Japanese about Hynobiids though. I've got most of the relevant scientific research papers that've been published. So, when you get yourself some H. dunni, I'd be happy to share with you what info I've collected. But if you want tips on breeding them, talk to Henk I'm personally in no rush to breed Hynobiids. Raising them from egg sacs up to adults is my thing. Once my H. dunni reach adulthood (another year or two for my initial batch), then I'll think about breeding.

Ah, but we're hijacking Henk's thread here....

(Message edited by tj on October 22, 2005)

Well ok Tim and the rest.
After reading the last text message ( thanks for the tips btw Tim) I decided to open a new thread about Hynobius dunni. I propose any questions I have about them will be here. ( Sorry Henk for hijacking thread).

<font color="ff0000"><font size="-2">(FROM MOD: I've merged Terry's new thread with this one after Henk said he saw no problem with this discussion continuing -- Tim)</font></font>

In reply to your last message in the other thread: I am currently reading up Henk's work in dutch and yes, I am aware that most of the documented material about Hynobious would most probably be in Nihongo. I already have trouble speaking my native chinese let alone JApanese but should I have need for extra information (when the time is right) I will most certainly approach you.

As far as reproducing environmental situations in an enclosed environment, you are right. I'll probably have to be there myself to see what it looks and feels like. For most of my montane forest species I try to mimic a setting very vivid in my memory: It is 1,524 meters above sea level and the temperature range there is 16-21ºC throughout most parts of the year. Cloud forest habitats and "fairy tale forest" environments are my speciality. Some of these conditions are easy to reproduce here in the Netherlands. Whilst some people swear by high temperatures for certain tropical newts which are being bred in Europe, I have no problem maintaining them at standard room temperature. Of course it differs from species and enclosures.

Japan has totally different weather conditions than Malaysia as I would imagine. I do not forsee myself flying to Japan anytime soon so the best comparison is to read about, e.g. Hynobius dunni's range and compare it to the locales I have visited in the highlands of Malaysia. Of course, tips and comments from breeders who have had experience are always welcome! For example people like yourself who live in the area/land of the species origin offer more than helpful advice! There is nothing like first hand accounts, some would say...
Terry

(Message edited by tj on October 22, 2005)

No hijacking to me... nice to see ere's an interest in this species....

OOOOOHHHH so THAT is where my discussion went! I was beginning to get a little worried as to why my thread vanished without a trace! Thanks moderator!
Greetings
Terry