Search for...C. chenggongensis?

maz373 · Feb 26, 2014

Hi everyone, firstly I'm more of a snake enthusiast than amphibian, I've kept a few snakes over the years but never had the patience I guess to learn how to take care of my own salamanders/newts (although I find them quite cool)
Nevertheless I find myself interested in this particular apparently very unknown and elusively controversial Chenggong Firebelly Newt... as it so happens I live in Chenggong, a short distance from where the described specimens were found. Chenggong is still relatively undeveloped so if these critters really exist then I'm moderately hopeful of the chance of finding them, there are many bodies of water around, nowhere near as polluted as the Kunming Lake where C. wolterstorffi was once found. Questions are, how would I go about looking for this newt, and what should I do if/when it is found?

Apologies if these are very newbie amateur questions, but I'd like the adventure of searching for it.

xxianxx · Feb 26, 2014

Sorry I can't provide any use full info..... Just hoping your going to get some pics of your herping trip up in this thread

Chinadog · Feb 27, 2014

How exiting, I'm very jealous! Maybe you could find more information in Chinese language literature? There doesn't seem to be very much info at all about the natural habitat of any species of Hypselotriton in English. Good luck, and remember to take a camera!

.

maz373 · Feb 27, 2014

Chinadog said:
How exiting, I'm very jealous! Maybe you could find more information in Chinese language literature? There doesn't seem to be very much info at all about the natural habitat of any species of Hypselotriton in English. Good luck, and remember to take a camera! .

ah so they now go as Hypselotriton chenggongensis... OK I'll look around for the Chinese literature and of course I'll always have a camera with me :happy:

Any tips in general about how to find a possibly elusive newt?

Asianherps · Mar 1, 2014

maz373 said:
ah so they now go as Hypselotriton chenggongensis... OK I'll look around for the Chinese literature and of course I'll always have a camera with me :happy:

Any tips in general about how to find a possibly elusive newt?

I never thought there will be foreigner herp-fans (I mean in term of Chinese perspective) live in Kunming~! lol I lived in Kunming for 17 years before I moved to the States.

As for your topic, I have been in Chenggong several times and tries to search for the C. chenggongensis as well, but I did not find any ideal habitats nor any individual. All the so called "Chenggongensis" I saw in the pet-trade are mis-ID Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. And as far as I know, the original paper did not specify the locality within Chenggong, and no individuals have been reported and confirmed by Chinese herpetologists after the original description.
Personally I think Chenggongensis is not a valid species, but rather a color morph of Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. Because firstly, the diagnostic characteristics are vague. Based on the Chinese literatures, C. chenggongensis differs from C. cyanurus mostly by having a lateral series of spots on each side of the vertebral stripe and the vertebral stripe is insignificant or reduced compare to C. cyanurus. However, given that coloration vary a lot among populations in newts, and since there are only a handful specimens of C. chenggongensis (less than 10), how convincing are these characteristics statistically? Similar thing apply to C. wolterstoffi, which differs from the former 2 by similar vague difference in size and shape, and by having paedomorphisis. But given in tiger salamander and other species where paedomorphisis is a plastic trait, the validity of C. wolterstoffi is very questionable.
Secondly, because there is no geological barrier between Kunming and Chenggong, I could not think of any reason why C. cyanurus, which inhabit Xishan forest park right aside of Kunming Lake and only few km away from Chenggong, could not migrate across Kunming Lake and inhabit Chenggong. And if they do, given no evidence of behavior isolations, how could no gene exchanges happen? If there are constant gene exchanges, they will become one species in evolution, which means all 3 species should be 1 with 3 morphs. However, since no C.wolterstoffi was extinct and no sure Chenggongensis can be found, those conclusions are just hypothesis and will be extremely hard to test.

Those are just some of my personal thoughts. Good luck on your searching and hope you can find some cool stuff!

All the best
Kai

Asianherps · Mar 2, 2014

Asianherps said:
I never thought there will be foreigner herp-fans (I mean in term of Chinese perspective) live in Kunming~! lol I lived in Kunming for 17 years before I moved to the States.

As for your topic, I have been in Chenggong several times and tries to search for the C. chenggongensis as well, but I did not find any ideal habitats nor any individual. All the so called "Chenggongensis" I saw in the pet-trade are mis-ID Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. And as far as I know, the original paper did not specify the locality within Chenggong, and no individuals have been reported and confirmed by Chinese herpetologists after the original description.
Personally I think Chenggongensis is not a valid species, but rather a color morph of Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. Because firstly, the diagnostic characteristics are vague. Based on the Chinese literatures, C. chenggongensis differs from C. cyanurus mostly by having a lateral series of spots on each side of the vertebral stripe and the vertebral stripe is insignificant or reduced compare to C. cyanurus. However, given that coloration vary a lot among populations in newts, and since there are only a handful specimens of C. chenggongensis (less than 10), how convincing are these characteristics statistically? Similar thing apply to C. wolterstoffi, which differs from the former 2 by similar vague difference in size and shape, and by having paedomorphisis. But given in tiger salamander and other species where paedomorphisis is a plastic trait, the validity of C. wolterstoffi is very questionable.
Secondly, because there is no geological barrier between Kunming and Chenggong, I could not think of any reason why C. cyanurus, which inhabit Xishan forest park right aside of Kunming Lake and only few km away from Chenggong, could not migrate across Kunming Lake and inhabit Chenggong. And if they do, given no evidence of behavior isolations, how could no gene exchanges happen? If there are constant gene exchanges, they will become one species in evolution, which means all 3 species should be 1 with 3 morphs. However, since no C.wolterstoffi was extinct and no sure Chenggongensis can be found, those conclusions are just hypothesis and will be extremely hard to test.

Those are just some of my personal thoughts. Good luck on your searching and hope you can find some cool stuff!

All the best
Kai

Found few typos in my reply... I mean the "C. wolterstoffi was extinct", not "no C. wolterstoffi was extinct"; and "hypotheses" instead of "hypothesis".

maz373 · Mar 3, 2014

Asianherps said:
I never thought there will be foreigner herp-fans (I mean in term of Chinese perspective) live in Kunming~! lol I lived in Kunming for 17 years before I moved to the States.

As for your topic, I have been in Chenggong several times and tries to search for the C. chenggongensis as well, but I did not find any ideal habitats nor any individual. All the so called "Chenggongensis" I saw in the pet-trade are mis-ID Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. And as far as I know, the original paper did not specify the locality within Chenggong, and no individuals have been reported and confirmed by Chinese herpetologists after the original description.
Personally I think Chenggongensis is not a valid species, but rather a color morph of Cynops cyanurus chuxiongensis. Because firstly, the diagnostic characteristics are vague. Based on the Chinese literatures, C. chenggongensis differs from C. cyanurus mostly by having a lateral series of spots on each side of the vertebral stripe and the vertebral stripe is insignificant or reduced compare to C. cyanurus. However, given that coloration vary a lot among populations in newts, and since there are only a handful specimens of C. chenggongensis (less than 10), how convincing are these characteristics statistically? Similar thing apply to C. wolterstoffi, which differs from the former 2 by similar vague difference in size and shape, and by having paedomorphisis. But given in tiger salamander and other species where paedomorphisis is a plastic trait, the validity of C. wolterstoffi is very questionable.
Secondly, because there is no geological barrier between Kunming and Chenggong, I could not think of any reason why C. cyanurus, which inhabit Xishan forest park right aside of Kunming Lake and only few km away from Chenggong, could not migrate across Kunming Lake and inhabit Chenggong. And if they do, given no evidence of behavior isolations, how could no gene exchanges happen? If there are constant gene exchanges, they will become one species in evolution, which means all 3 species should be 1 with 3 morphs. However, since no C.wolterstoffi was extinct and no sure Chenggongensis can be found, those conclusions are just hypothesis and will be extremely hard to test.

Those are just some of my personal thoughts. Good luck on your searching and hope you can find some cool stuff!

All the best
Kai

Hey Kai
So you're a native Kunmingren, small world!
I was also thinking initially that the C. chenggongensis is probably the same as the C. cyanurus... so I'm not incredibly optimistic, but the fact is that is hasn't been proven, and chenggongensis still shows up as unique species. The locality has the initial specimens as being found in Shuitan (*I think) and that's quite far from Kunming (Dianchi) Lake and Xishan, and actually bordering Yangzong Lake, about 60km away. So it is, in theory, possible (isn't it?) that if the C.wolterstoffi was a separate species, then why not the C. chenggongensis?
So, if I do indeed find some newts around this area, it would be interesting to compare with the C. cyanurus to see if they are really the same species.

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