Ethical question on runts

Hey everyone,

I have a half ethical question and half genetic responsibility question. So I have bred my axolotls successfully and am currently selling the babies. My moral dilemma comes from the runts of the batch. Now I know the major runts need to be culled which has been done, however there are some that are like 1.5 inches while others are like 4 inches. (Obviously they are separated)

My question is, is it ethically ok to sell the smaller ones. So part of me says if they are going to survive and grow then it should be fine, they have made it this far so why not? However I’m not sure about how they will grow up. Will they always be runty? Should I cull them as well? What is the ethical thing to do as a seller as well as what is the ethical thing to do as an axolotl enthusiast who wants to strengthen the genetic line of axolotls… or at least not hurt it.

What do you think?

Note: As of this moment I have only sold the healthiest looking axolotls.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Variation in the speed of development is to be expected so unless they are showing signs of health issues, have deformities, etc, the fact that they are growing slowlier is not an issue and it doesn´t merit culling. Culling slow growers could also further reduce genetic diversity.

There are other ethical matters that deserve consideration, like the breeding of GFPs or breeding from endogamous pairings.

One of 13 that I bought at 1 1/2 inches didn't grow at 16 degrees like the others. I kept it on its own at 21 degrees fed it on small foods and hey presto it started to grow. It caught up with the others at around 5 inches, even overtaking some. I have kept this one and would not now describe it as a runt, even though I initially considered letting the others eat it.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

You guys are all kinder than me, my runts are snacks, I pull the biggest few larvae from a batch and let the rest get on with some natural selection.

I may be in the minority here, as I'm not a breeder, but even if I were, I wouldn't kill, as that's what we're talking about, a baby axie unless it had major deformities.

If I judged all of the babies I ended up hatching just by growth rate, all but 2 would be gone, as the ones that were cut out of their eggs 10 days after my first 3 hatched are much smaller, and EVERYONE is much smaller than Audrey!

Just my 2 cents.

xxianxx said:

You guys are all kinder than me, my runts are snacks, I pull the biggest few larvae from a batch and let the rest get on with some natural selection.

Click to expand...

That's surprisingly exactly what I do.

I honestly think thats awful, why would you feed the little ones to the bigger ones just because they are little!
I can understand if they are majorly deformed and have no chance at survival (even then i would give it a chance, if it could still eat and swim).

I thought this was a website of axie loving people, and some of the comments on this post have thoroughly disgusted me

Layna, I think it's a site for axolotl (and other amphibian) enthusiasts, but that also covers collectors and people who like to observe their behaviours, and see them less as loved-pets. And there's nothing wrong with that. The site has a scientific bent, not just a forum for pet owners, and a lot of really helpful information comes from people with other approaches to amphibians. They can breed and observe them in numbers pet owners couldn't; more opportunities to learn, and less temptation to sentimentalise.

Smaller, or unlucky larvae, would be picked off in the wild. (One of the other reasons they lay so many eggs; all sorts of predators out there, including each other!) If you're breeding them in those numbers, you can't raise all of them as loved-pets, and so letting them do what comes naturally isn't, from my point-of-view, horrific or sickening.

I'd like to add I won't be letting my axolotls eat each other, and will separate if there's any biting/excessive growth difference. That's because they'll be my pets. But I'm prepared to tolerate other people's approaches, even if they may not be the kindest, and I may not agree with them.

Edit: Or to look at it from another angle, how is letting the runts live with their bigger siblings to be eaten if they're unlucky enough to be predated on any different to keeping feeder fish or shrimp in your axolotl tank, or feeding them live worms?

( I'd even argue for the feeding of pellets of frozen bloodworm; the owner isn't instrumental in the killing of the creatures that made gone in to those products, but another human has called the shots and taken the responsibility for the pet-owner. )

I understand thats it may not be possible to raise them all, but then i dont see why you wouldnt cull them as eggs.
Im not saying people cant kill their axies, im simply horrified that they do.

I see it the same way as any other animal, i wouldnt feed a grown dog, a puppy, simply because the dog eats meat.

layna said:

I understand thats it may not be possible to raise them all, but then i dont see why you wouldnt cull them as eggs.
Im not saying people cant kill their axies, im simply horrified that they do.

I see it the same way as any other animal, i wouldnt feed a grown dog, a puppy, simply because the dog eats meat.

Click to expand...

You're not quite understanding. Instead of babying the smaller ones, they just aren't separated if they lag behind in growth. It has nothing to do with age, and there isn't any intentional feeding.

I do not seperate slow growing animals from "normal" develloping animals if the eggs hatched at the same time. If the "slow" animals manage to avoid being eaten then they're sure to be raised to an adult. If they get eaten then they've served as a meal. If I would find this disgusting, than nature would disgust me even more. The survival rate of larvae is a lot higher in my care than in the wild.

I guess i just see animals as things to be cared for. Therefore my opinion is that this is wrong.
I fully understand what you are saying to me but i still dont agree, i think if there are ways to prevent an animal dying, then it should be done.

layna said:

I guess I just see animals as things to be cared for. Therefore my opinion is that this is wrong.
I fully understand what you are saying to me but i still dont agree, i think if there are ways to prevent an animal dying, then it should be done.

Click to expand...

Why bother to cull eggs when you can use excess larvae as a food source ? I used about 2,000 axolotls as feeders last year, they went to provide a natural diet for several species of newt/sal who appreciated them. There is no way I can raise all the eggs I get over the course of a year, last year I gave away or trade hundreds of eggs but there is always an excess. Many species would naturally predate on smaller amphibians so I am just replicating part of a natural diet. If you dont like it well I am sorry but there the facts, you can either kill the eggs or use the larvae its as simple as that.

I am in the same mind as Layna, I understand nature and what would happen in the wild but i am the person who turns away from the screen when the fox catches the rabbit, i have even been known to run out of my house after a cat that was torturing a wild rabbit and also a mouse (my neighbour who owned the cat thought i was crazy). we had rats in our garden and we put poison down, i found a half dead baby rat on the grass...i was mortified and felt so guilty

Its not always a case of pet or science etc....its just who i am and how i feel

Don´t get me wrong, i don´t discriminate. I either leave the larvae with the parents and take out any juveniles or advanced larvae that manage to make it, or separate a number of eggs and keep them all together to compete. The only exception are T.dobrogicus which have to be separated after a certain size or they´ll destroy each other, so if you are trying to raise more than one, you simply have no choice.
I´m all for allowing competition and having a bit of natural selection. This benefits our captive population´s future. It´s the raising of every individual that damages and compromises future generations.

Saving a "runt" (not necessarily a slow grower) today may well cause a lot more suffering in the future. It´s not nice, but it´s real.

layna said:

I thought this was a website of axie loving people, and some of the comments on this post have thoroughly disgusted me [/COLOR][/FONT]

Click to expand...

I actually missed this post, I suggest you save your disgust for the people who abuse axolotls with poor water quality, too high a temp , an inappropriate diet or show general negligence in the care of their pets. Rather than people who provide a high standard of care and supply the rest of you with good quality axolotls, if you wish to keep any runts I have I will be more than happy to supply you with several hundred a year on the understanding that you collect them and keep them your self..

Just because a lava is small doesn't mean it's a runt. Recent studies in larval development of Taricha concluded that variation in embryonic and larval growth were an important feature in coping with seasonal predators. Who's to say that large axolotl larvae are less prone to predation than smaller ones? Big is not always good if you're on the menu.

Obviously it's not viable to raise all larvae from a captive breeding and applying a selection method that represents wild pressures is all but impossible for the keeper. Where amphibians are concerned size is not indicative of fitness. We'd be better off raising fewer and keeping all sizes.

I've been asking myself this very question, first in an 'is it a good idea to keep a runt?' and more recently in a 'why did I bother?' kind of way.

I should have known this thread wouldn't have any easy answers!

I rather foolishly became attached to my little runt, even though I knew it was probably a mistake to keep him and definitely a mistake to name him (Giuseppe).
I have to keep brine shrimp bubbling away for him every day, and that was the one part that put me off in the first place.

The rest are divided into 4 tubs, first by colour and then size. The majority are all in together but I've separated the smallest (not true runts) just to give them a chance. They'll make it or they won't - but I don't have the time or energy to house them individually like I know some do.
Any that get injured will be hospitalized or sent to live in the sea/freezer/bird table water bowl, depending how badly injured they are, but I don't like the idea of axie eating axie, or worse, half-eating and finding a furry floater - which is never nice.

Mark said:

Just because a lava is small doesn't mean it's a runt. Recent studies in larval development of Taricha concluded that variation in embryonic and larval growth were an important feature in coping with seasonal predators. Who's to say that large axolotl larvae are less prone to predation than smaller ones? Big is not always good if you're on the menu.

Obviously it's not viable to raise all larvae from a captive breeding and applying a selection method that represents wild pressures is all but impossible for the keeper. Where amphibians are concerned size is not indicative of fitness. We'd be better off raising fewer and keeping all sizes.

Click to expand...

I am probably misusing the term "runt", I havent (up until recently) raised full batches of axolotls due to space, so have had no interest in raising slower growing axoltols. In my tanks with a high stocking density those axolotls who lag behind their siblings in growth just dont make it and I select the smallest for feeders when I need to thin the numbers down. How ever to assume that a faster growth rate would not lead to increased chances of survival in the wild is debatable. Smaller axolotls get predated by bigger axolotls, there is definitely an advantage of being the biggest in a batch, wether there is a disadvantage I dont know. If you wish to compare information on other species look at tiger sals they have a percentage of the population who change physiologically to become cannibal, which in turn promotes a faster growth rate and they predate on smaller members of their species. Bigger is better for those guys and leads to an increased chance of survival, who is to say the same the is not true of axolotls ?