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Photosynthetic Axolotls with help from the Spotted Salamander.

Molch

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This might be useful for several reasons:
1. Healthier, larger, and more developed salamanders after hatching
2. They could hatch earlier.
3. If released back into the wild, it might give them a competitive advantage and allow for re-population of a dying species for whatever reason: being that the eggs are greenish, they are better hidden from their predators. If they develop faster, this decreases the reproductive cycle of an Axolotl, allowing for an increased rate of evolution. Plus success rate of eggs in the wild might increase for other reasons along with shorter development period, and blending in with the area better. Perhaps the larvae are stronger and bigger allowing for increased food types immediately after hatching, etc.

4. If Albino, and given ideal conditions + selective breeding, perhaps the Axolotl could become slightly photosynthetic for its entire life. (Unlikely, and unlikely to make a difference.. but who knows?) -- This is highly unlikely, and borderline delusional, however! :)

I don't see anything wrong with brain-storming potential science projects.

But remember, science is a process of consecutive steps building on what is already known and advancing that knowledge step-by step. Your hypotheses above rather skip a few important steps. Before thinking of putting these algae into a new species of salamander, it would be important to test the hypotheses you formulated above in the original species, the spotted salamander. I don't know where the research is at, but has it actually been demonstrated that the algae lead to faster development and bigger, healthier offspring in spotteds? Those are your hypotheses 1 and 2, and they would have to be supported by real data before moving on to 3 and 4. That alone might be a worthwhile senior or master's research project.

Are you a biology student? If so, why not approach a professor who does research on salamanders with those ideas? He/She might be able to refine the ideas with you, and who knows, this could become a grad project for you...:)
 

Neotenic_Jaymes

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would it be possible to just add the algae to your breeding tank and allow it to flourish and see if anyting happens. or is this algae dependent solely on the symbiosis?

Applying algae into a breeding tank would not do. Algae and embryo symbiosis in Ambystoma maculatum is very specific. I find Yellow Spotted Salamander egg masses in vernal ponds that have 3-4 other Ambystoma egg masses. Egg masses from other species laid next to A. maculatum egg masses are totally unaffected and ignored by the algae.

The specific algae is found inside the female cloaca. Suggesting that the eggs are laid with the algae inside the eggs before being deposited. So external introduction of the algae may not be possible.
 

Vesp

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Applying algae into a breeding tank would not do. Algae and embryo symbiosis in Ambystoma maculatum is very specific. I find Yellow Spotted Salamander egg masses in vernal ponds that have 3-4 other Ambystoma egg masses. Egg masses from other species laid next to A. maculatum egg masses are totally unaffected and ignored by the algae.

The specific algae is found inside the female cloaca. Suggesting that the eggs are laid with the algae inside the eggs before being deposited. So external introduction of the algae may not be possible.

No that isn't true.
It is found in other salamander species and the algae has flagella and seems to swim freely in water and is found in the water. Eggs that are raised in captivity with tap water do not get the algae, but then when they are placed back into the pond they are quickly colonized. So they are not laid already with the algae in them - and so external introduction is possible and likely the main method of inoculation.
Once the flagellated algae enters the egg, it then morphs into a non-flagellated algae and colonizes the embryo.

I believe I posted about this earlier -- IIRC it was the picture I uploaded?
However, I am not entirely sure if it is Oophila amblystomatis, or other related algae. I think Occam s razor would suggest that it is Oophila amblystomatis or a very closely related algae.


Also read this: Algae and Salamander Eggs

Not so much the article, but the comments by Frank Indiviglio

Hi Dawn, Frank Indiviglio here. Thanks very much for your comment and interest.
Algae-egg associations are also known for wood frogs…this has not been as well studied as re spotted salamanders, but it is believed that a symbiotic relationship is also involved. Wood frogs live in your area, and breed at the same time as do spotted salamanders, but they do not lay a large, blob egg mass as is produced by the salamander. This is the only frog egg-algae association I know of. Interestingly, research out of the University of Missouri indicates that algae growing on the skin of American toad tadpoles may be involved in a symbiotic relationship with the tadpoles.
Eggs of tiger, Jefferson’s and Northwestern salamanders also support algae. Tiger salamander egg masses can be confused with those of spotted salamanders, but in NY tigers are limited in range to the pine barrens of Eastern Long Island, and do not occur in Dutchess Co. Jefferson’s salamanders might be found in the area, but their egg masses are much smaller than those of spotted salamanders, and are cylindrical in shape.
He does not provide references and I haven't read anything else that confirms it -- but when you Google Frank Indiviglio he has written books, and has a career relating to herpetology and seems pretty educated. So it is much better then just some comment from some stranger. He also wrote that article I believe.
 

Neotenic_Jaymes

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No that isn't true.
So they are not laid already with the algae in them - and so external introduction is possible and likely the main method of inoculation.
Once the flagellated algae enters the egg, it then morphs into a non-flagellated algae and colonizes the embryo.

The algae was still found in the oviducts and cloaca of females. Naturally introduction could be internal or external. Since the algae was found internally I assumed the introduction is internal. Since the eggs are coated with the jelly that form in the oviducts they have to have some sort of contact with the algae even before they're exposed and deposited.

The algae has been found in egg masses of other species but doesn't mean that there is a symbiotic relation occurring. But there is a potential that its very possible especially in Amystoma gracile/Northwestern Salamander, which had the obvious green algae in their egg masses also. I think that the introduction to the algae happens internally. The algae isn't just in the A. maculatum oviducts for no reason.

Quote=Eggs that are raised in captivity with tap water do not get the algae, but then when they are placed back into the pond they are quickly colonized.

That actually depends on how long the eggs were in sterile waters. The algae bloom takes place at a certain stage of larvae development. A. maculatum larval development is according to temperature. So keeping the egg masses short term in fluctuating temps means nothing unless you keep them past the suggested time of algae bloom. We're they kept beyond the algae bloom commencement? At this point I don't think it's safe to say the eggs are deposited without the algae already in them. The algae was found in the oviducts, which I think is significant.

Maybe we should ask someone who has breed A. maculatum. I know a few people that did.
 

Vesp

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Hmm that is very interesting and makes it harder to see exactly what is going on. I think to get a better picture of everything we need to obtain Gilbert (1942, 1944) .


Perhaps it is possible the water used in the guys tank who breed the salamanders had algae in it? Possibly from the salamander - since it lives within the salamander, and could release spores and small fragments of it while laying eggs.

Like several parasitic and symbiotic organisms the algae might have a complex reproductive cycle/strategy.
It might be able to only reproduce asexually in the pond water, and then reproduce sexually either inside the salamander, or the eggs.


I messaged Erin R Graham who did the research "Intracapsular algae provide fixed carbon to developing embryos of the salamander Ambystoma maculatum" and also other stuff at Sander's Lab. Uncategorized | Sanders Lab

My Message to Her:
Each spring, North American spotted salamander (Ambystoma maculatum) females each lay hundreds of eggs in shallow pools of water. Eggs are surrounded by jelly layers and deposited as large gelatinous masses. Following deposition, masses are penetrated by a mutualistic green alga, Oophila amblystomatis, which enters individual egg capsules, proliferates, and aggregates near the salamander embryo, providing oxygen that enhances development. We examined the effects of population density of intracapsular Oophila on A. maculatum embryos, and show that larger algal populations promote faster embryonic growth and development. Also, we show that carbon fixed byOophila is transferred to the embryos, providing the first evidence of direct translocation of photosynthate from a symbiont to a vertebrate host.

Are you sure it is after the eggs are deposited? Or is the Oophila already present in the eggs before the salamander has laid them? It is known that the alga lives within the spotted salamander even in adulthood. At the same time I also read that the flagellate alga penetrate the eggs and morphs into a nonflagellate form.

I am doing some research to see if it is possible to transfer this Oophila/Chlamydomonas sp. algae to tiger salamander eggs, or Axolotols (Amybstoma mexicanum) eggs, either by close contact or by carefully injecting a small bit of the alga extracted from the spotted salamander eggs into the eggs of an axolotl. If you have any knowledge about the possibility of doing this, I would love to hear it. I also would not mind if you sent me any journals related to the subject.

While I am sure you do not want to spend hours researching the possibilities of this, what is your gut feeling? Do you think alga could colonize the axolotl?


Her message to me:

Cameron,

Gilbert (1942, 1944) showed that if the eggs are laid and maintained in tap water, they will not have algae. Also, eggs without algae that are placed back in pond water are soon colonized, so it appears that they are not laid with algae already present. Yes, the alga can be found in low quantities in adults. When it is in the eggs, it moves from the outermost egg layer to the innermost layer and then loses its flagella and becomes non-motile. I don't know about Oophila colonizing other salamanders, but I believe that the occurrence of algae in salamander eggs is probably more prevalent than reported. It doesn't make sense that this association, which offers multiple benefits to the salamander, would only be found in a few species. I would give it a try. I have a paper in press with more information (JEB). Where did you get the abstract below?

Regards,

Erin

If you guys have any additional questions for Erin, I bet she would be happy to answer them when related to this subject -- so mention them here. :)

And can anyone get find Gilbert (1942, 1944)?
 

Vesp

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One of my posts here did not get posted - and I find it rather upsetting! Did it get lost? or has it not been approved yet?

Anyway -- on to the topic!

The eggs of some salamanders and anurans contain green algae. Examples are the eggs of the Spotted Salamander (Amybstoma maculatum), Jefferson Salamander (A. jeffersonianum). Tiger Salamander (A. tigrinum), Northwestern Salamander (A. gracile), Red-Legged Frog (Rana aurora) and Wood Frog (R. Sylvatica). Gilbert (1942, 1944) observed that in the Spotted and Jerfferson Salamamders the alga was unicellular species (Oophilia = Chlamydomonas ambtystomasis) It occured through the jelly envelopes of the eggs but, in the Spotted Salamander, in later development, was the most abundant in the inner envelope. It was determined that the alga penetrated the eggs after they were laid. This has been confirmed by Galtz (1973). There was some experimental evidence that it reduced mortiallity and sped embryonic growth and time of hatching.


This quote, and the below pages are taken from this: A Natural History of Amphibians - Robert C. Stebbins, Nathan W. Cohen - Google Books
Which is a book called; A Natural History of Amphibians
By Robert C. Stebbins, Nathan W. Cohen


So the important thing: YES tiger salamanders have algae in them.
Since one can argue that a tiger salamander and an Axolotl are nearly the same species (they breed to produce fertile offspring - How is that not the same species? :p) that it is HIGHLY likely that the algae can also grow in the Axolotls eggs, if it does not already in the wild.
 

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Neotenic_Jaymes

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[QUOTE=Vesp;350394Possibly from the salamander - since it lives within the salamander, and could release spores and small fragments of it while laying eggs.

Thank you for agreeing with me. Thats what I was saying. The Yellow Spotted Salamander contains the algae and is likely to transmit it in multiple ways. Not only that but the algae is contained in the reproductive area of the female salamander and the algae is suspected to be within the cells of the adult salamanders also. So you challenging my earlier post could likely be wrong. Suggesting that the introduction to the algae most likely happens externally and that the external method being the (main) method could likely be wrong also.
 

Vesp

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Yes what did I challenge exactly? I am not saying the algae is embedded in the eggs but just intimately exposed to it possibly.

Obviously I might be wrong about some of the stuff but I'm just going off of research that I can find. It sounds like the algae enters the egg outside the salamander, in the pond after it is laid.

Now what we need to determine is: Is the algae in the spotted salamander and the tiger salamander the same species of algae?
 

lexmiller

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It makes one wonder how long this has been occuring. Has the algae always been incorporated with the eggs? Or is this development geologically recent? I would have to believe that if this had been going on for a very long time that the algae woudl possibly form a relationship with the salamanders that resembles that of the relationshiop some scientists believe single cell organisms developed with mitochondria eons ago. And...I think I read an article stating that the salamander's cells contained cholorplasts - and that the chloroplasts and the mitochondria were "hanging out". It would seem that the two could essentially "feed" eachother...but I could be just wildly speculating.

VESP - I think you idea is good as far as the experimentation. Releasing to the wild...perhaps a bit too much for now (but when all the axolotls are gone...maybe they will understand). I find it discouraging that someone on this forum would question your age and education. That's just friggin' rude. But you totally skipped over that, so I applaud you.

Now...I do remember reading that the algae was in the cloaca as well...and that was ANOTHER pathway into the eggs. So...yeah...

Someone needs to play around with this thing in a laboratory. I am sure there are already scientists doing so, but I would like to be on one of those teams that was able to successfully create a "solar powered" animal. It'd be cool!
 

Vesp

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A bit late to reply to this, but I had intended to earlier in a post that I lost before posting.

I agree this could be a worthy experiment to conduct, however, you need a lab in order to do that (because, again, this would be far more complicated than just putting the algae inside an egg), and people generally don´t have that. You also require an advanced understanding of inmunity and both caudate and algal physiology.

To do such things you need either both knowledge and deep understanding of salamander's physiology and ecology and means to make such experiments, a well-equipped lab.

Unless your definition of a well equipped laboratory is different then mine - it does not sound like it requires much of a complicated laboratory what so ever. Just some improvised equipment, salamander eggs, and algae. Perhaps a view special ordered items like an ultra small and fine needle, and perhaps some special salt mixtures to aid with minerals and water hardness for the axolotls and algae.
And also of course, some bright lights with little or no ionizing radiation. What else would you need? Microscopes are easily obtainable, and I suspect cheap and easy tests exist to determine if algae is present in the eggs after attempted inoculation.

And of course the point of this conversation IS to develop a deep understanding of algae, and salamander's physiology, ecology, immunology and other aspects pertaining to the subject. Research journals are available and there is no reason to assume that scientists have information that is not accessible to us. If we were so determined, we could discuss many of the required aspects and concerns that and come up with a proper assessment of how to perform the experiment, and if it is even practical to happen.

I don't see anything wrong with brain-storming potential science projects.

But remember, science is a process of consecutive steps building on what is already known and advancing that knowledge step-by step. Your hypotheses above rather skip a few important steps. Before thinking of putting these algae into a new species of salamander, it would be important to test the hypotheses you formulated above in the original species, the spotted salamander. I don't know where the research is at, but has it actually been demonstrated that the algae lead to faster development and bigger, healthier offspring in spotteds? Those are your hypotheses 1 and 2, and they would have to be supported by real data before moving on to 3 and 4. That alone might be a worthwhile senior or master's research project.
I understand how science works and the scientific method. Did you read any of the quotes, references, and comments I've attached, or linked too?
Yes the algae in salamander eggs lower the mortality rate of the salamander, and they hatch earlier in the original species. This is backed by real data, and I believe has been confirmed multiple times.
Additionally it now appears to be true with many of the other species (Jeffersons, Northwestern, and even the Tiger), as well as some frogs. It seems many herpetologists suspect the algae-symbiosis is actually very common in other amphibians but has yet to be documented for various reasons (lack of funds, incentives, etc)


Are you a biology student? If so, why not approach a professor who does research on salamanders with those ideas? He/She might be able to refine the ideas with you, and who knows, this could become a grad project for you...:)

I am not a biology student, but I have approached Erin who did research on the spotted salamader-algae relationship, and posted the emails here.


It makes one wonder how long this has been occuring. Has the algae always been incorporated with the eggs? Or is this development geologically recent? I would have to believe that if this had been going on for a very long time that the algae woudl possibly form a relationship with the salamanders that resembles that of the relationshiop some scientists believe single cell organisms developed with mitochondria eons ago. And...I think I read an article stating that the salamander's cells contained cholorplasts - and that the chloroplasts and the mitochondria were "hanging out". It would seem that the two could essentially "feed" eachother...but I could be just wildly speculating.

First I'd like to say that I believe defining "organism" is a false distinction for a variety of reasons, and instead each organism should be looked at as a thing similiar to an ecosystem.
What you are talking about is called endosymbiosis, and I don't think that has happened with salamanders just yet. However with their intimate contact with algae I could see how some genes could transfer to and from each organism over time - especially if other bacteria are involved.

I think what we are dealing with salamanders that have chloroplasts and mitochondria in the same cells, but just simply endosymbionts that grow within one another's cells. Much like how endosymbiotic (endophytes) bacteria, protozoa, and fungi grow within the cells of plants, and often connect to one another directly to share nutrients.

However -- if you can find an article that is high quality that says chloroplasts exist within salamander cells that would be fantastic - and I would hope that you'd share it here.

VESP - I think you idea is good as far as the experimentation. Releasing to the wild...perhaps a bit too much for now (but when all the axolotls are gone...maybe they will understand).
Yes I agree that releasing might not be the best thing - however, in my opinion as the original poster it is asinine not to be open minded and consider various ideas and applications. When starting this thread, I did not know where it would lead. I think it is important to consider all ideas and aspects when discussing things related to scientific application of an experiment.

I find it discouraging that someone on this forum would question your age and education. That's just friggin' rude. But you totally skipped over that, so I applaud you.
Yes - it shows that they were not taking a scientific approach to this idea. Instead of using logical claims backed with empirical evidence that algae cannot transfer to other species of salamander eggs, or refuting or addressing my claims that it should be able to for the variety of reasons I have given, they seemingly just wanted to attack the idea in general - by adding variables such as age and education, as if that would make anything more or less true.

Although, I suspect that was honestly just a general curiosity, so that being said:
I'm 21, college drop out, study biology as a hobby in the past time, have a business that sells scientific equipment with an emphasis on materials used to culture edible mushrooms. I have relatively little knowledge about salamanders, but I know a decent amount about fungi, plants, and symbiotic relationships (but it is still a hobby)

Now...I do remember reading that the algae was in the cloaca as well...and that was ANOTHER pathway into the eggs. So...yeah...

Someone needs to play around with this thing in a laboratory. I am sure there are already scientists doing so, but I would like to be on one of those teams that was able to successfully create a "solar powered" animal. It'd be cool!

Yes I think the fact that algae is found in the cloaca has very interesting implications - it may simply be a commenselistic relationship that does not help or harm the salamander - or more likely IMO, it is a symbiotic relationship and it aids with introducing the algae to the eggs during the process of laying the eggs. It could be as simple as releasing algae spores or fragments in the same proximity of the eggs, or rubbing spores on them as they come out of the salamander. While it sounds like the algae can survive without salamander eggs, it might not be able to produce spores or effectively reproduce without them. This could be the algae's way of ensuring its survival for the next reproductive cycle of the salamander - a year later.

Also - please respond if you still think this is highly impractical and unlikely to be achieved, but only if you have:
1. Read all of the references, quotes, links, etc that I have provided.
2. Disagree with the possibly because of either additional empirical knowledge or scientific research/data that you have came across. A gut feeling is nice, but not veridically useful.
3. And of course, if you do have some references that would be helpful in either debunking the idea that algae can be transferred from one species egg to another, or helpful in confirming that it is a possibility -- please share it!

It is easier to doubt then to examine. An uninformed persons doubt is useless and only brags their laziness, but an informed persons doubt is useful and expresses their diligence for finding truth.
 

Vesp

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Also does anyone:
1. Often have Axolotl eggs
2. Able to find ponds with algae containing spotted salamander eggs.
3. Is interested in adding pond water near spotted salamander eggs into a dish with Axolotl eggs + light for photosynthesis?

This probably has to be done in the spring, and I would be happy to do what I can but I do not live by the spotted salamander, or have axolotl eggs. Shipping spotted salamander eggs and spotted salamander pond water to me, and axolotl eggs, would be interesting and I could deal with it from that point on.
 

NewtZoo

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I would like to add that Tiger salamanders and axolotls are very closely related taxa. Tiger salamanders also breed in the same ponds as spotted sals and yet over the course of thousands of years they have not developed a commensual relationship with the algae. So Im not sure this would work out. Its also worth mentioning that axolotls (although not well understood) do contain an adaptive immune system. This makes integration of parasitic organisms very difficult.
In the captive environment axolotls do very well. So trying to develop a system where axolotls benefit from algae in a system where axolotls are already doing very well seems like a hard nail to drive.

But I say go for it if you have the time and resources.
 

Vesp

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I would like to add that Tiger salamanders and axolotls are very closely related taxa. Tiger salamanders also breed in the same ponds as spotted sals and yet over the course of thousands of years they have not developed a commensual relationship with the algae. So Im not sure this would work out. Its also worth mentioning that axolotls (although not well understood) do contain an adaptive immune system. This makes integration of parasitic organisms very difficult.
In the captive environment axolotls do very well. So trying to develop a system where axolotls benefit from algae in a system where axolotls are already doing very well seems like a hard nail to drive.

But I say go for it if you have the time and resources.


Did you not read the parts that say Tiger salamanders also have algae in their eggs, and that the algae likely colonizes eggs before the immune system kicks in?
 
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Vesp, I have read everything, and must agree with you given the copious amounts of information on this thread. It is a viable project, and obviously there is much that we do not understand. Keep updating this, especially if you are able to test with axolotl eggs. I would like to know how much bigger the larvae are on average when they hatch from eggs colonized with algae vs. the ones left without it.

~Anthony
 
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