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Still sick?

AshleeRW

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Hi! I posted about a month ago about my 5-ish year old male wild type axie - Abe. In January I noticed that his color began to fade (in small patches and spots). I tried a series of salt baths and it didn't seem to do anything ... upon closer look I came to the conclusion that the lack of color was probably not an infection (at least not fungal as nothing "sloughs" off in the salt baths). He is still very active and is still eating for me (bloodworms, brine shrimp cubes and earth worms). I have purchased a water testing kit and found that the Ammonia, Nitrate and Nitrite levels are all 0ppm and the pH is about 6.7 ... I noticed today that his gills look like they aren't as "fluffy" the have been in the past.

He was originally a lab animal and is missing a whole rear leg and part of one of his front arms. I have two (male and female) golden albinos (in a separate tank) that I feed the same amount of food at the same time as Abe ... they are both very chubby while Abe doesn't seem to gain weight like my goldens do. I am concerned about him still and I'm looking for suggestions.

The only theory I have is water type ... for the first 4 years I've had them (all 3), I lived with my parents and they had well water. Last year I got married and moved the axies to my new house which has city water. I thought maybe the chlorine that tends to be in city water could be causing his fading color ... but, I don't know. I started treating his water with a chlorine/chloramine eliminator just this week. My other two appear healthy (although being albino I wouldn't be able to see color fading), but I'm worried about my little Abe. Could it be age related?

I would appreciate any and all help/advise! Thanks!!
 

AshleeRW

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Here are some pictures (sorry, this is the best my camera can do!):

The first two are Abe now .... the third picture is Abe about a month ago. He's lost a lot of color since then!

Any thoughts?
 

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Bellabelloo

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One of my juveniles changes colour a while back, the only thing I could think that caused this was the substrate he was kept on. The tank had been out side , resting on a pale wood (pine) bench with nothing on the base. While here he was more yellow. When he moved in doors he was in a much darker tank with a dark substrate and he darkened with in days. Maybe its the light coloured sand and he is trying to blend in? :confused:
 

AshleeRW

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I had thought about that too! At my parents house he was in the entry way and his tank was constantly exposed to sunlight. Now in my new house he is in the basement and the sunlight he gets is much less. I have a lighted top on his tank that I had set on a timer, but I found that a thick, bright green algae would completely take over the tank within a day of having the fluorescent light on!

So, the amount of light he gets has certainly decreased, but he's been in this house now for a year.
 

Darkmaverick

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Hi AshleeRW,

Thank you for providing a good general history and an interesting case for discussion. There are two main concerns here. Firstly, the depigmentation (of a 5 year old axie) and secondly thinner body condition.

Thin body condition

For an axolotl that remains thin, you have correctly identified stress as one of the reasons. Always find the underlying cause and treat it first. Ensure good environmental conditions such as good water chemistry (0 ammonia, nitrite, <60 nitrate, pH neutral), ideal water temp of around 18 degree celsius, low water currents, dim lighting conditions, no other aggressive conspecifics or cross species tank companions, no gravel substrate and proper hiding places. It appears you are doing a great job ensuring water condition.

Next check that is is not suffering from a concurrent illness or disease. Monitor for signs of illness like lesions and gill pathology. Check if there is unusual behaviour such as writhing. Parasites (both ectoparasites and intestinal helminths) can cause inappetance or loss in body condition. A vet can obtain faecal samples for faecal float, microscopy, culture and staining. Again, it seems that your axie is appearing healthy and eating well, so i would consider parasitism as a possible cause.

Axolotls obtain most of their nutrition via the intestinal tract. Therefore, offering a large variety of nutritious food, including live earthworms, bloodworms etc. should be the first treatment. Live food can stimulate feeding. Also check that the water temperature is not too high (stress) or not to cold (low digestibility) which causes regurgitation. You may like to offer more variety and also see if you are feeding enough quantities.

Lastly, it can all be perfectly normal. Different axolotls have inherently different genetic makeup and hence conformation. Your axie could be the a 'runway model' equivalent. ;)

Depigmentation

Firstly, i can safely say your axolotl is not suffering from fungal or bacterial infection based on the photos. The colour change is generalised throughout its body and has no accompanying ulceration or growth. There is no necessity (at least at this stage) for salt baths. i consider fridging a very non invasive conservative therapy so it really doesn't matter even if you fridge your axie. Its just like axie spa.

In majority of cases, pigmentation issues are in reverse, whereby a juvenile axolotl increasing gets more pigmented as it grows older, especialy in leucistics. Axolotls can't change their colours to 'blend' into the surroundings for camouflage per se, but environmental conditions coupled with genetics can gradually influence the chromatophore (pigment) distribution on an axie.

Dietary factors, water conditions and possibly light exposure (controversial), can actually 'switch on or off' certain genes over long term which can affect how much a particular type of pigment is produced and in what distribution.

There is a recent thread on UV exposure in caudates/axolotls. If you are interested, here it is.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59626&page=2

Cheers
 

Kerry1968

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Hi there, one thing I noticed in your post, you said your nitrate is at '0', this should be between 10 and 60 as I understand it. Does this mean your tank isn't cycled?
 

AshleeRW

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Thank you for such a detailed answer! My axie is named Abe because he has always been ABEnormal! (pathetic I know, but it's fitting and he's cute!).

I have just recently been varying his diet (the last 2 months) before that, they were all fed brine shrimp cubes with the occasional earth worm (when I could find them!). His water temperature is about 58F as it's winter here and he's in the basement, so if anything, his water is very cool, certainly not hot!

A hidden, internal infection, is possible. I hadn't thought of that. I would have to find a vet in the area that deals with axies. I have a vet for my puppies but, I would doubt that they do salamanders too! I will see what I can find in Western NY!

As for "water cycling", I'm not sure what that is. His tank was set up over a year ago. He has a low flow, Whisper filter and I change the cartridge every few months. Up until this week I have never added anything to his water and now, I've added a bit of chlorine/chloramine eliminator drops. He has sand as substrate, fake/plastic plants and a log to hide in. He is fed 3xs a week. I could test his water again, but when I tested on Tuesday the Ammonia, nitrate and nitrites were 0ppm. This isn't good?
 

blueberlin

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Hi Ashlee,

Cycling is described here. I am glad that you are using a dechlorinator now because chlorine/chloramines are poisonous - perhaps that has been the underlying problem?

Odd that your tank has no readings at all. Could the test kit be old/expired? Is the tank newly set up, as in less than a month old?

-Eva
 

shellysue

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As I understand it, UVB through a long and complicated procedure with the addition of heat, results in vitamin D3, the process is essential in animals that do not eat meat, as D3 is present in animal protein, metabolic bone disease can be caused by a lack of calcium particularly in young and rapidly growing animals. If your axie is getting animal protein AND enough calcium mbd should not occur.
 

Darkmaverick

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Hi Shellysue,

I think you misunderstood. There was absolutely no mention of metabolic bone disease. Ashlee was concerned that her axie is not putting on weight as much as she would like and that her axie appears to be getting lighter pigmented over time. The clinical presentation has no relevance to MBD.

I mentioned UV in an earlier post in relation to how external environmental conditions can actually switch on and off certain genes to express pigmentation.

The role of UV in caudates is still debatable. If you look at the earlier referral thread, there was a lengthy discussion whereby i also consulted 4 exotic vet specialists to offer their opinions on whether UV light is necessary in caudates. MBD is mainly caused by nutritional deficiency in caudates.

Cheers
 

AshleeRW

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Abe's tank has been set up for over a year now. I just bought the water testing kit (API) this week so I don't believe it would be expired... in my 5 years of owning these guys I have never tested their water until now!

I will continue to use the chlorine/chloramine treatment and monitor his progress. I guess if he's still active and eating well I shouldn't be overly concerned. I just want to make sure that I do everything I can for him!

Thanks everyone! You have all been so helpful!
 

blueberlin

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Hi Ashlee,

Just to check - the whole question here is about Abe's color change?

-Eva
 

AshleeRW

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Yes, his color change has me concerned. I apologize for all the extra information, I was trying to give all the information I thought would be needed/asked.

He is skinnier than my albinos ... but, he has always been that way!
 

blueberlin

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No need to apologize, it is usually the other way around and folks don't give enough info. :happy:

I have wild types and they change color pretty regularly. I know this because two are much lighter than their siblings and on the day I went to photograph the color difference, they all looked the same. The next week they were back to being different colors.

Something worth considering is that axolotls shed, too. This is not so apparent on the lighter types, but with darker types it looks like the skin goes grey in patches. It does not mean anything bad but if you want, you can give the axolotl a tea bath to help the shedding along. Either way, it is usually normal and should not be a problem.

I still think it odd that you have no readings for nitrate - or anything, for that matter. In an established tank, it is normal to have 0 nitrite and ammonia, but there should be some nitrate. 0 chemicals is obviously not bad (ammonia and nitrite are poisonous even in low concentrations, and nitrate can be poisonous if its level gets too high) but it sure is odd. With axolotls producing wastes in the water, there should be chemical reactions going on. Curious.

-Eva
 

ianclick

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I Agree with with Eva,

It sounds from your parameters that your tank isn't fully cycled
 
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