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Neurergus kaiseri CITES Appendix I soon?

Mark

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The 3 exceptions that jump out at me are:
2. Where a Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is satisfied that a specimen was acquired before the provisions of the present Convention applied to that specimen, the provisions of Articles III, IV and V shall not apply to that specimen where the Management Authority issues a certificate to that effect.
4. Specimens of an animal species included in Appendix I bred in captivity for commercial purposes, or of a plant species included in Appendix I artificially propagated for commercial purposes, shall be deemed to be specimens of species included in Appendix II.
5. Where a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that any specimen of an animal species was bred in captivity or any specimen of a plant species was artificially propagated, or is a part of such an animal or plant or was derived therefrom, a certificate by that Management Authority to that effect shall be accepted in lieu of any of the permits or certificates required under the provisions of Article III, IV or V.
Further definition of pre-convention regs can be found here: Resolution Conf. 13.6

Maybe it's an oversimplification on my behalf. If USFW issues import paperwork for c.b. animals to be imported I consider them to be legal to have.
.

My understanding is that CITES is just about international trade - not the legality of your animals (although that may effect how kindly a Management Authority views your application for a licence - I don't know). If you want to export CITES controlled animals it's irrelevant whether USFW, or anyone else has issued paperwork. If your country is signed up to CITES you'll need a CITES licence. If you don't plan on shipping kaiseri out of the US you needn't worry about CITES.
 

Azhael

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Mark as you quoted it really won't matter for kaiseri because ,prior to their being listed(if they are), they were legally exported and legally imported.Legal according to the governing parties involved anyways.

I´m confused about this....how can they be legally exported if the species is protected by Iranian law?
The way i understand it, as soon as the animals touch US ground, they become legal. Same as it used to happen with many species in the UK. They were ilegally smuggled but became legal when they touched british ground (although this has been mended, right?), but that in no way means they were collected by legal methods.
What i can´t see is how highly protected animals can be legally exported with no papers whatsoever...
 

gustav

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I said legal as far as the two participating governments are concerned. For example export of kaiseri out of the E.U. into the U.S. Also they are only legal "once they touch U.S. ground" if USFW approves the shipment.The U.S. would have to see valid export papers from the E.U.
I really don't know the laws in the US, but over here it makes a huge difference if animals are protected or not. They were imported until now without a problem because they are not protected and so they need only papers from the veterinarian to assure they are kept and handled right and so on. It is not checked by the customs or anyone else if these animals are of legal origin. It is not the job of our customs to secure that an Iranian law is obeyed. However when the animals are protected here it does matter if they have a legal origin as from then on the local laws over here are in effect. And for example every CITES document can be withdrawn at any time by the authorities if they think they had wrong or incomplete information at the time when they issued the certificate.


Also there is a historical record of a legal export from Iran.Iran already has admited this.Because of this export it would be hard to prove the illegality of captive kaiseri. It's not what you know it's what you can prove.Thats how laws work.
The laws here in germany work this way: YOU have to prove to the authorities the legality of your animals.
 

Newtility

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I'm sorry, Jay, I must be stupid today or something but it looks like you are literally talking about "laundering" amphibians. It doesn't work like that. The only country of origin for this species is Iran. Captive bred offspring receive CITES papers based on their parents, and so on. I don't see how anyone is going to have real CITES papers for these.

John,

very easy if it comes to that. If a species gets listed under CITES all specimen present at that date will be leegalized by simply registering them - without any prove of origine as that wasn´t required before. New laws never can apply to the past. Thus all kaiseri present at the moment of becoming listed under CITES will be legalized. Apart from that, there are no more imports of kaiseri as they are bred by the thousand. So, where would the sense be in protecting them under CITES? This species as generally all caudate amphibians is not relevant for the international trade at a scale anyhow comparable to turtles, snakes, spiders etc. Except of course all these chinese newts which are exported by enormous numbers and literally consumed around the world. Price for a Cynops orientalis on the Guandong market is $0,06!
Oh, by the way, many of the guys screaming against all these "illegally imported" stock - has anyone ever put a thought about that from the word of the law all these Tylototritons, Paramesotritons, Pachytrition and Cynops from China are protected from export if laws would be taken serious? And would you please hand out all animals originating from not doubt free legal exports? That will leave Humphrey Axolotls and some species of Salamandra, Triturus and other european species for the hobby. But only if the particular stock can be traced back to the legally collected stock. One final thought: before the Bern Convention was set up hardly anybody cared for caudates. But as soon as they became protected it changed and many more people than before wanted them. As there was not many stock collecting started in a way as never before. Papers were easy to get as only species were listed, not subspecies. Ever since we have every species and subspecies of caudates from Europe in the hobby.
But nothing has changed in regard of their threat in nature. Biotopes are being destroyed as never before if only it is for profit and the "common interest". For example Oviedo in Spain, they are "developing" the city and by that destroying the biotopes of the unique Oviedo morph of Salamandra s. bernardezi. The spanish government once was strict about this population as a national monument. Now, as there are millions coming from the EU, it is only "one of many populations" and doesn´t count anymore. Want another 5000 examples of this idiocy around the world? No country in the world gives a penny for it´s protected species except maybe Australia, an New Zealand. The worst of all are Mexico (number one in eradicating endemic species!), the USA (hello, California!), and the arabic world (you should see the export listings from more or less all countries of that region - pure horror!). I don´t blame any black african country as they have strong other problems to solve but some like Cameroon, Tanzania, Benin, and Congo are plundering their countries in a frightening way. Yes, I am defatistic about that and my programm against species extinction is captive stocking and propagation. This is accepted more and more as the only practical way for small animals, e.g. the Atlanta Zoo was granted to evacuate 24 species of amphibians from a central american valley to stock before chytrid fungus will reach that region.

Happy New Year to all of you!
Steffen
 
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Azhael

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In regard to the bernardezi of Oviedo, it is indeed very sad that what used to be very dense populations have been reduced to isolated populations with much much lower numbers, but i sencirely don´t know what you mean about the unique Oviedo morph.....no such thing. They are bernardezi...plain ole bernardezi. The fact that they are nothing "special" doesn´t mean it´s ok to destroy their habitat, it´s terrible and sad, but trying to make them something new to raise a case is not very ethic either.
Our government deserves a good kicking when it comes to conservation of habitats of protected species. But hey so does every government around the world...¬¬

About other species that suffer a heavy collection for the trade, i assure there are many members in this forum who are very much aware of it and would like to see it stop. We are not all kaiseri-crazed.
Although as far as i know, some Tylototriton and Paramesotriton species are sadly being illegally collected, not ALL of them are. Cynops orientalis, the sad king of importation is legal (not that i can stand that fact that they continue to be collected).
 

SludgeMunkey

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I have it from an extremely reliable source that captive bred Neurergus kaiseri are for all purposes CITES 2 in the USA. This is wonderful news for everyone willing to breed them at home and help drive prices down to the point wild specimens are worthless.

No word on other countries yet. I have been disheartened to see some folks outside the US have given up on the species bit happy that on all cases their animals are now institutionalized in CB programs.
 
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