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Near and Middle Eastern Newts (Neurergus) Arguably the most beautiful newts in the world, this Asian genus is highly desired by many hobbyists.


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Old 7th March 2005   #21
Tim Johnson
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Hi Steffen. It would also be great if you could get details of the Iranian national legislation that was mentioned.

Serg, you will surely be unhappy to hear that these animals continue to arrive in Japan (via Germany, I think), with at least one recent delivery here of around 50 adults -- I had thought CB despite their size but they now seem to be WC.

Guenter, here's wishing you continued luck with that serious breeding operation you have going there -- though on second thought, I doubt whether it's "luck" that's mostly involved Click the image to open in full size.

(Message edited by TJ on March 08, 2005)



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Old 7th March 2005   #22
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Some have now come into the UK, I've been speaking to the importer and I can assure people they are Captive Bred.



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Old 8th March 2005   #23
Mike East
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They are 7.5 cms total length, and just 12 were imported. He is happy to keep them for a future breeding project. As they are priced at £100 (Trade) I think that the price is too rich for most, and he will have to keep them!



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Old 8th March 2005   #24
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Mike, please don't post trade prices in public.



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Old 8th March 2005   #25
Tim Johnson
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I've received a couple of private inquiries already after posting on this subject here.

For the record, I am not a source for these animals (or others for that matter across international borders) Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 8th March 2005   #26
Mike East
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Andrew - This is a non-commercial site, run by "hobbyists for hobbyists".
You describe yourself as an "Amphibian Commercial Breeder", please don't insult my intelligence, do you really believe that breeding a few Bombina produces a living wage?
In fact the vast majority of your advertised stock at: http://www.pollywog.co.uk/livestock.html is taken straight from genuine importers Trade Lists, you then add a 100% markup without even having the stock on your premises, thats not bad for the price of a phone call. I'm in the wrong business!
I have many vices, but greed is not one of them. Please don't pretend to be a hobbyist in your postings, when you are clearly in it for the money.
If you wish to practice your entrepreneurial skills, I suggest you do it elsewhere.
Incidentally, I sell the vast majority of my surplus captive bred caudata to these same importers, at reasonable prices, as it seems that most hobbyists expect to be able to aquire their animals for next to nothing. I can assure them that if my hobby ever actually paid for itself, I would be a very happy man.
I'm truly sorry if I have upset you, but I feel that it had to be said.



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Old 8th March 2005   #27
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Mike,
Yes I am a trader and I do not try to hide the fact, the majority of people on here know who I am and know that I am a trader, I do sell animals from importers and from several breeders along with some species I breed myself.
I add the same mark up on these animals as any other trader, in some cases I add less where possible. As you said a number of the species are not held by myself, but this means that I have to absorb more in the way of delivery costs and can’t get the same discounts I would by placing large orders thus necessitating the mark up. Also I offer discounts to breeders and educational establishments in order to help promote the Captive Breeding of these animals.
I am a keen hobbyist, I do not come here to advertise I come here to learn as does everybody else.
I do care about my animals but I also have to make a living, I’m sorry if that upsets you, but without traders such as myself who would buy those animals you sell to the importers?
If I did not care about the hobby and was in this just for the money I would be selling WC animals to kids but I do care and thats why I only sell CB animals! I am not out to make lots and lots of money, I try to keep my prices down as much as possible by going direct to breeders when possible in order to pass on savings to my customers, If a customer is after a certain species instead of selling them a WC I try and source some CB as you know having supplied me with animals yourself in the past.

(Message edited by pollywog on March 08, 2005)



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Old 9th March 2005   #28
Mike East
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Andrew,
Traders do not upset me, I have absolutely no problem with traders/importers.

I fully accept what you say in replying, (revised edition).

What I do not like is that you use the hospitality of Caudata.org to further your business. Why would you tell me not to post Trade prices in public?....and do you not send e-mails to "undisclosed recipients" ....myself, and other members of Caudata.org stating: "The following are now available"?



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Old 9th March 2005   #29
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Mike,
I asked you not to post trade prices as I feel it is not a nice thing to do, you are entrusted with those prices confidentially by the suppliers and I feel to share these prices with others is not something that should be done.
I do not attempt to use this site to further my business.
I do send e-mails with the e-mail address hidden as "undisclosed recipients", these e-mails are sent to my customers and potential customers, sorry I must have got your address mixed in with them when I typed out the list, I shall remove it now, and yes I do have a lot of other customers that use this site but that does not mean that I am using this site to target potential customers!
The reason I hide the address' on these e-mails is that some of my customers are also traders and I do not wish them to have the e-mail address of my customers.



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Old 10th March 2005   #30
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I wouldn't go to Iran for all the neurergus in the world. Better to have the head on my shoulders!!! Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 11th March 2005   #31
Mike East
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Andrew - I notice that you have cut the price of the kaiseri by 100%.......Wonderful thing, competition!

Are you going to halve the price of the rest of your (their) stock now?

Why should a small advert in Caudata.org classifieds by myself cause you to cut your price so drastically on your Livestock List, when you state that " I do not attempt to use this site to further my business" ..... if this site produces such a small amount of "customers and potential customers" why bother?



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Old 11th March 2005   #32
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Fellows,

there seems to be a lack of proper information about the actually imported/sold kaiseri.

There are wc as well as cb on the stock lists of the two exporters offering kaiseri.

For all I know they are farming the kaiseri in the Ukraine which has lead to the offer of cb. They wont offer wc as cb as wc will be better payed. So it is to be expected that within a certain, presumably shorter period there will be many cb of kaiseri on the market. Hurray to all who are expecting huge profits from breeding the kaiseri form their expensive wc stock! ;-)

The wholesalers/farmers are professionals. They would do right not to simply sell wc of a very limited species (in fact it is not as limited as putatively mentioned everywhere) but to establish a breeding in farming dimensions.

I am expecting more Neurergus species to occurr in the trade soon and hope they will be farmed by professionals to satisfy all people with interest in them. This will hopefully lead to what many other species have gone through - from the hype to a normal interest of people seriously trying to work with them. Whilst the commercialists change to other "new" species.

Steffen



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Old 11th March 2005   #33
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Mike,
I have cut my prices due to reasons that I do not wish to disclose. It is not in direct response to your advertisement placed on this site but is affected by other factors that you are not aware of.

I will not be cutting anymore of my prices at this moment in time as they are truly justified, as was my original price on the N.kaiseri, and as is my new lower price on the N.kaiseri.

I would like to once more point out that I am not in this business just to make money, I do not rip off my customers. For you to expect me to run a business on a loss is totally unreasonable, we all have to make a living, I'm sure you earn more than I do! You do not know what costs and charges I face in the running of my business so I do not see how you can make such claims.

I do not wish to discuss this matter further.



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Old 11th March 2005   #34
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The discussion about kaiseri is annoying in wide parts: either there are people pretending "interest" accompanied by the lamento of the too high prices. Then there are commercial traders who (of course - their business!) work on holding prices high by putting the myth of "rareness" and little availability. Finally the "self-entitled protectionists" who of course are against wc only because they either can or will not afford to buy them or have this species and want to sell the offspring. Maybe there are some who don´t fit into either of these groups. Gimme a call! Hope there are some left who simply are interested in this species, its biology and maintenance and breeding. And not predominatly in keeping them exclusively within a "sacred circle" or making money from them.

I get off this topic here and now. lets come together on this say in one year.

Steffen



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Old 12th March 2005   #35
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Buying from a commercial dealer/wholesaler will most probably lead to a continued collection of these animals in the wild as one has proven that there is a demand. Any removal of animals of any developmental stage from the wild has to be based on a sound population assessment. In my opinion a lot more effort should be put into the description of populations, their habitats, ethology and ecology before even thinking about keeping a particular species in captivity. The subjective observation of a high animal density at a given location and time is worthless regarding conservational status or population dynamics. So far, I haven't seen any hard data on the extended range of N. kaiseri and I have yet to see proof of any operational commercial caudata breeding facility.

(Message edited by ralf on March 12, 2005)



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Old 14th March 2005   #36
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Thanks, Ralf, I couldn't say it better!


Sergé



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Old 15th March 2005   #37
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Nice statement, very ethical, very emotional too but without evidence of the real situation of kaiseri. And the trade has other mechanism than explained here. Live animals is much different from wood trade or automobiles or cloth. The "market" (I hate this term in concern of living animals) is very limited so is the demand for certain species, particularly a highly expensive, rather obscure and sensitive (what is know by now) species. More a caudate amphibia which is even more on the margin of general interest. The N. kaiseri is not a Leopard Gekko! All people willing to buy them at the actual prices will have them. Others will have to wait for CB. As Ralf mentiones, there is nothing safe on kaiseri in nature. That is the main reason why I have started research long ago on all available literature which infact doesn´t enhance much. More, this has lead to contacts with scientists in Iran from which I have already received climatic data from the Zagros and the springs in which kaiseri is found. This is not completely congruent with what was published up to now. When more data will be available I will analyse what can be drawn from them for captive maintenance and propagation and prove on my group of kaiseri.

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Old 12th April 2006   #38
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Hi Steffen,

and how are your kaiseri doing? And all the others that were imported last year?
All people I have spoken to have lost the ones they bought, so......this year fresh imports have been on the market. What have we learned?

I would like to know if people have seen numbers (amount of animals in trade).

All the best,

Sergé



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Old 12th April 2006   #39
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There were about fifteen N. kaiseri at Houten a month ago, with one possible female. The price was 50 euro less than that of the wholesaler.

The man who sold them had some other rare, mainly asian species of snakes and skinks (many Tribolonotus!).



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Old 12th April 2006   #40
Tim Johnson
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I don't know where they're all coming from, but there've been dozens and dozens and dozens of kaiseri in the pet trade in Japan this year too. I'm unaware of anybody who bought them last year who were able to keep them alive for more than a few months.



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