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Tylototriton Keepers in the United Kingdom.

TylototritonGuy

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Hi all,

I had completely forgot about this thread so apologies! :(

I have a draft copy of what I currently decided on the Document/Certificate to look like and contain but obviously I am open to suggestions for things to add to it or take away.

This will be for UK Keepers only.

Here is a poor quality Print Screen of the document:
tylototritonguy-albums-randoms-picture29199-tylototriton-ownership-certificate-draft.jpg



It is hard to make out from this print screen so this is a list of what it will contain, please bear in mind still that this is still only ideas and a draft of what it should contain etc;
[FONT=&quot]

Owner/Breeder Details
[/FONT]


  • Name/Alias of Owner (Current)
  • Owner ID Code
  • Breeder Reg Name/Alias
  • Breeder ID Code

Contact Details (Owner/Breeder)

  • Email Address
  • Mobile Number - optional
  • Telephone Number - optional
  • Caudata.org Account - optional
  • Other Forum Accounts - 3 options - optional
  • "Do you give permission for future keepers of Offspring and Current individuals you keep to view your details? Y / N"
  • Address (If agreed to) - optional
  • Other Details - optional

Previous/Original Owner/Breeder Details

  • Name/Alias of Owner (Previous/Original) x2
  • Owner ID Code x2
  • Previous/Original Breeder Reg Name/Alias x2
  • Breeder ID Code x2
  • Email Address x2
  • Contact Number x2
[FONT=&quot]Species Details[/FONT]

  • [FONT=&quot]Species Name [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Nomenclature[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Quantity[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Male to Female Ratio [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Date of Ownership (begin) [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Number of Times Bred [/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Origins - Wild Caught, Captive Bred, Captive Farmed, Long Term Captive etc[/FONT]
  • [FONT=&quot]Known Locality Descent - where the bloodline is know to come from in the wild.[/FONT]
  • Male (Reg Name) Linage - Family Tree of known individuals
  • Female (Reg Name) Linage - Family Tree of known individuals
  • Declaration
  • Owner (Current) Signature and Date the started owning individuals
  • Previous/Original Owner/Breeder Signature and Date they passed on the individuals.


And currently that's all it contains! I am still playing around with ideas but anyway, let me know what you think of it so far :)

Kind Regards

TyloGuy




 
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alexps

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all that is then si a "pedigree" listing for the animals deemed acceptable to be listed it will help in a very small way be for some breeders to avoid inbreeding and to follow a line breed system or are you planning that only out cross pairings be allowed?It seems that being a breeder is becoming a "dirty" word
 

TylototritonGuy

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all that is then si a "pedigree" listing for the animals deemed acceptable to be listed it will help in a very small way be for some breeders to avoid inbreeding and to follow a line breed system or are you planning that only out cross pairings be allowed?It seems that being a breeder is becoming a "dirty" word

No actually, Pedigree to my mind means a controlled form of breeding to get certain trait, to control the bloodline and keep it pure (The only thing I want to keep pure is the species, to avoid cross breeding and hybridisation which let's admit has been talked about now and again) totally different concept to what I want.
What I am doing it trying to avoid any form of unnecessary inbreeding of the entire genus,the only part of the word breeder that is becoming as you put it "Dirty" is the fact that people are quite happy to inbreed specimens and to breed animals purely for what "Morph" and "Colouration" the exhibit, which I see is a bit of a A.mexicanum thing, it's also something I depise from the Royal, Corn, Beardie and Leopard Gecko line of the industry too many people trying their hand at making what you named "Pedigrees" lol

Are you suggesting that avoiding inbreeding is a bad thing then? It's too late for T.verrucosus unfortunately as to many people were selling spawn to any one (I counted about 3-4 breeders) but the other species within the genus that can be located in the UK can be prevented from being mixed, which I think inbreeding is completely avoidable in all honesty! I mean seriously, the amount of WC specimens that are Imported into the UK on a regular basis pretty much proves that inbreeding is completely unnecessary, don't you think? Or should the other families and genus's in the animal world end up like Dogs, Cats. and Royal Pythons?
 
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mr cyclone

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I cannot help myself ,but i have to reply to this thread to make my points
First of all. I am the bastard of 2012 who grossly flooded the U.K market with Verrucosus,I bred them to the max last year i raised over 40 to 50 morphs and sold over 1000 eggs and before me was Morg and before Morg was John the founder of this sight.I traced my beeding females back to john or morgs animals and were interbred at least 5 or 6 times before i got them.The fact that these newts are everywhere all i can say is your welcome!.
If anyone can do the same with shanjing,Yangi,Wenxi,Then all i can say is Kudos !
for everyone says how rare Tylototriton are and if the UK verrucosus line is diluted or too pedigree well so what ! Caudata.org is a hobby based website and if there are 10 million verrucosus in 5 years time in the uk then this will be stopping WC imports arriving in the UK therefore preserving the Wild populations is this not a good thing?
As for seperate bloodlines their are now 3 to 4 main breeders of verrucosus in the Uk and a lot of other small breeders who are breeding those offspring .I recently aquired 2 specimens from Europe that sadly perished but i will be introducing more genetics from EuRope this year or next to keep the chain slightly diverse .
Who is to say that every Yangi in the UK is not related? most in collections including your specimens are WC Tylo guy.Have you had their blood tested ? if im not wrong your wenxi and Yangi are both related,There is nothing to say that your WC Yangi arent of the same geetic bloodline as the WC animals that have bee secretively floating about the UK or in Zoo collections.
I Do appreciate the need for a studbook it is a fantastic idea ,but at the same time ,My personal oppinion is if rare animals can be bred to fantastic numbers it should be encouraged not condemmned ,Verrucosus are prolific breeders and very rubber in nature and spur on keepers interests for other Tylos .what would anyone on here do with a group of verrucosus that spawned 300 eggs every 2 weeks? flush them down the toilet and raise 10 adults to put in a closely watched breeding colony?
I myself keep these species
Tylototrion
Yangi 5 animals (3 genetic lines)
wenxianensis x 3 (1 maybe 2 lines)
shanjing x4 (2 definite lines)
Taliangensis x 8 (2 lines)
Echinotritonx2 (1 line)
Neurergus kaiseri x8( 2 at least very distinct lines)
Crocatusx4 (2 TYPES)
Derjugini x5 (1 line)
Triturus Cr9istatusx 5 plus larvae(unknown mixture of eggs raised from the UK specialised colony)
Marmoratous x 7 (5 different lines)
2 banded newts, ommatotriton ophriticus(unknown line adults).known source
also 8 juves seperate bloodline
and 4 Verrucosus adults (my disgusting over bred polluting line ) and 4 juves from julia's line that are maybe only seperated by 1 male .

SO as you can see I am paying attention to genetic bloodlines and trying to keep lines diverse.Ive read in the past certain strains of animals as widespread as this were from the same import or breeder such as neurergus strauchii ,and to a lesser extent Crocatus and now kaiseri
As for Verrucosus who the hell in the Uk has seen a WC Verrucosus in the last 10 years to breed with ? the only hope is swapping in europe.
your Yangi and your wenxi could be F9 BEFORE you get anywhere near them!!(ntural selection)
1000 verrucosus in the UK? Well good stuff guys they will hopefully be more common than FBN in years to come .And in the next 5 years i hope to do the same with the rest of the available genus I will sign up to any breeding list regulated no problem but i will continue to breed possible genetic relatives when their are no other alternative as that's what happens in nature???

These animals should be housed in responsible hobbiest collections aswell as ZOO'S collections.Some species only survive due to private hobbiest's at best.
 

TylototritonGuy

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First of all. I am the bastard of 2012 who grossly flooded the U.K market with Verrucosus,I bred them to the max last year i raised over 40 to 50 morphs and sold over 1000 eggs and before me was Morg and before Morg was John the founder of this sight.I traced my beeding females back to john or morgs animals and were interbred at least 5 or 6 times before i got them.The fact that these newts are everywhere all i can say is your welcome!.

Your taking that a bit far by calling yourself that, like you have taken it personally? Yes you did highly breed them to such an extent, that it’s now impossible to know which is what blood line in the future, but you make it sound like a good thing? Why are we welcome? What have you done except simply over breed one set of individuals to the max and sell them at such low prices that people would easily make profits from raising the eggs selling them on again then losing the line even further.... Also there were other people before then breeding T.verrucosus not just you and two other’s there are people on here that I know for a fact have bred most of the Tylototriton genus in the UK…

You basically, with that statement, make inbreeding sound like a perfectly acceptable thing, it's frowned upon with humans why should we be accepting inbreeding with other species?

If anyone can do the same with shanjing,Yangi,Wenxi,Then all i can say is Kudos !
for everyone says how rare Tylototriton are and if the UK verrucosus line is diluted or too pedigree well so what ! Caudata.org is a hobby based website and if there are 10 million verrucosus in 5 years time in the uk then this will be stopping WC imports arriving in the UK therefore preserving the Wild populations is this not a good thing?


They say that about other species within the genus, I have never ever heard T.verrucosus being called "Rare in the UK", they haven't been rare in the UK for years, I have seen them popping up all the time before you started the breeding of them from other people...

Hang on, you said down below that "As for Verrucosus who the hell in the Uk has seen a WC Verrucosus in the last 10 years to breed with ?" aren't you contradicting yourself with the fact just above you said that it's preserving wild populations, but if no one has seen a WC Verrucosus enter the pet trade in years how is it affecting the wild populations?? Habitat-loss, water pollution, introduction of certain fish species and being used for bait fishing are the main thing's that affect the wild populations and the individuals you bred will never be introduced back into the wild so it's not preserving wild populations like you said, they still are in decline in the wild regardless of your mass breeding...

You simply won't completely stop Imports of Wild individuals, that is actually impossible especially with most of South East Asia, most of the Chinese members of this forum have even stated "In China conservation and protection of species is a joke", which basically shows that with out hard work (going away from the topic of conservation breeding) you aren't going to stop it, it's more about enforcing laws or quotas and the main thing, Education.

As for seperate bloodlines their are now 3 to 4 main breeders of verrucosus in the Uk and a lot of other small breeders who are breeding those offspring .I recently aquired 2 specimens from Europe that sadly perished but i will be introducing more genetics from EuRope this year or next to keep the chain slightly diverse .

This is a good thing though, this is basically what I am talking about and what you seem to be against, being able to keep track of new individuals and keeping it controlled and not losing grasp of it, for money or a name or a title or whatever...

Who is to say that every Yangi in the UK is not related? most in collections including your specimens are WC Tylo guy.Have you had their blood tested ? if im not wrong your wenxi and Yangi are both related,There is nothing to say that your WC Yangi arent of the same geetic bloodline as the WC animals that have bee secretively floating about the UK or in Zoo collections.

No one said they aren't but that is highly doubtful considering this species is probably the most widely imported next too T.asperrimus and T.wenxianensis individuals from Chinese and South East Asian imports. Yes I have had my pair tested and they actually came back as two different individuals as a matter of fact, however the other individual being sold with them (there was 4 originally - 1 was with a friend) was related to my Female individual, I quickly made a note of it in my note book that I keep for every species I have in my collection.

Zoo's stick to strict Conservation lists that are based upon the IUCN Red Listed of Threatened Species, T.yangi is not a currently listed species due to the fact it was only recently Classified so, no zoo would have them in a Conservation programme, yet. Most places concentrate on the Classifications from Vulnerable to Critically Endangered, and as the T.yangi is probably one of either two (DD = Data Deficient - NE = Not Evaluated) options I highly doubt anywhere has this in a breeding programme, but I imagine they are in collections as they are certainly amazing display animals.

My personal oppinion is if rare animals can be bred to fantastic numbers it should be encouraged not condemmned

It shouldn't be condemned , where has it been condemned on this thread? It should be Controlled, completely different kettle of fish which has nothing to do with condemning anyone. This hobby and profession for some people is already under attack from idiots in the EU that want to either Black List Invasive and Highly Bred species or Ban the hobby completely forcing people to go underground, they are also stating that if this is successful they will force people to have there individuals PTS there what would happen to your 500 odd individuals floating around the UK? They are gone, so much for that highly bred species in the UK, the ones that get caught being traded or sold are going to be dead. (Different issue completely though)

Verrucosus are prolific breeders and very rubber in nature and spur on keepers interests for other Tylos what would anyone on here do with a group of verrucosus that spawned 300 eggs every 2 weeks? flush them down the toilet and raise 10 adults to put in a closely watched breeding colony?

They are very prolific, you hardly need to encourage them in all honesty I bred them when I was younger once by accident. And perhaps not flushed down the toilet but yes, they would be controlled, they should be controlled. If every Tom, Dick and Harry bred them then what would be the point in you breeding them or the Pet shops that do bred them? You would be out of the game buddy, finding something else to breed and sell instead of the T.verrucosus amoung with the other breeders known and not known in the UK. What is the point in highly breeding something to the point where you simply exhaust them completely and make them as common as a Bearded Dragon or a Corn Snake? There isn't a point at all, it's just mindless "Lets inbreed this species even more" and from what happened last year, all I saw was a chance to make money but you finally turned that around by stopping and saying "Lets get more European individuals here and relieve the pressure on the current bloodline". When I found out about that I actually PRAISED you to people as it seems like you wanted to help the line of T.verrucosus out.

SO as you can see I am paying attention to genetic bloodlines and trying to keep lines diverse.Ive read in the past certain strains of animals as widespread as this were from the same import or breeder such as neurergus strauchii ,and to a lesser extent Crocatus and now kaiseri

Good, glad you are trying to keep them diverse now, but going back to the T.verrucosus, did you do that with them before you sold them to just about everyone?

As for Verrucosus who the hell in the Uk has seen a WC Verrucosus in the last 10 years to breed with ? the only hope is swapping in europe.

Like I said before this has nothing to do with what you said above in all honesty, if T.verrucosus isn't Wild Caught and imported to the UK or anywhere else for that matter then how is it helping Wild Populations?

Plus like I said previously in the thread, T.verrucosus will not be added to my (Theorised) list that may never actually happen, at the end of the day it's ideas so why are you so wound up about it? You have been since I made this thread and wanted nothing to do with it basically (worried about identity or something), not sure why but I thought maybe it was because it contradicted and if was too happen, would prevent yuo from selling more individuals/clutches.

your Yangi and your wenxi could be F9 BEFORE you get anywhere near them!!(ntural selection)

I spoke about this to a few people, there might be some relation between the T.yangi distantly but that is like everything, Homo sapiens would of been exactly the same. But I am getting further tests done and also looking into this to see if it is possible to have further tests done before I breed any further, hence why my breeding stopped completely with this species.

My T.wenxianensis are related and just because I have only a pair which could potentially be male and female, does that mean I plan to breed them together? Have I stated that at all on this thread or elsewhere? In fact I actually said they would be used for breeding with OTHER individuals, not with each other to prevent any inbreeding or further inbreeding. They are going to be separated in the next few months to avoid anything of the sort.... I am actually tracking down individuals to add to my growing collections of Caudata and Anura species, this includes my;

  • T.yangi- I bought some juveniles back in March, only 20 euros so I thought why not grown them on for potential and future breeding projects?
  • T.wenxianensis - I am being picky as to where I will get them from, need to be 100% certain that I got a good and separate blood line and when I get them I will look into the possibility of getting them tested.
  • E.andersoni - I am very picky about where to get these from next, still yet to make contact with anyone as I am happy to wait, if they turn out to be Male and female then I will separate them.
Even with my Anura I am very picky about where they are from and who bred them, I basically explain it to every person I contact and every shop I go into that it's a must for me too know. I know have CB12 S.gottlebei and am waiting for the next annual export from Madagascar for more animals that are new blood (Malagasy imports are completely authorised by the Madagascan government as they are scared to loose all their naturally occurring wild populations due to the habitat loss that effects all Malagasy species).

Natural Selection and Survival of the Fittest has nothing to do with inbreeding, Natural Selection is based upon the fittest Male passing on his genes and the Weakest not having the chance to be able to continue his weak bloodline. Who is to say that the Strongest Male will be a related specimen, is that not being a bit vague? lol

So where does Natural Selection come into it (Especially if you are talking about captive breeding)? It doesn't, you aren't replicating a wild and natural environment where the Strongest prevails over the Weakest, you are actually giving the Weakest a chance to pass on his genes and his possible weaknesses that would prevent him from carrying on his line in the wild...



1000 verrucosus in the UK? Well good stuff guys they will hopefully be more common than FBN in years to come.

Hang on, why is this necessarily a good thing? You don't know what might happen or who you sell them too (I noticed quite a few people you sold your Clutches to have sold them on and in turn the third owner has sold them on for more money) because, from what I can tell that's all just about money, not the animals in question. How do you know that people haven't tried Hybridising species? It's been widely talked about before now by various people, what if someone comes along that doesn't have a clue about any of it and doesn't come on Caudata.org and simply breeds two species together thinking they are the same and releases them into the Trade? Who is to say these 1000 T.verrucosus won't become eventually 2000 muddied half blood individuals that only carry part of the genetic line for it's species? It's happened with the Southern Chinese Tiger, a subspecies that only numbers 75 individuals (all in captivity) that is also basically Functionally Extinct because people have tried to inbred it to much and hybridise it with Siberian Tigers. Same principle with other species.


And in the next 5 years i hope to do the same with the rest of the available genus I will sign up to any breeding list regulated no problem but i will continue to breed possible genetic relatives when their are no other alternative as that's what happens in nature???

Hang on, how do you know that happens in nature? I distinctly remember a Journal you passed on to me (Thank you for that, i enjoyed it back all that time ago) that I faintly remember saying that T.wenxianensis can some how know the difference between relations? Whether that is poppy-**** or not I don't know, I personally haven't taken the time to go out into the wild and study your theory of "Relatives reproducing in the wild". They probably well do but who is to say that they would continue inter-breeding even more? They might not inter-breed, guess neither of us will ever know unless we go out and study it.

These animals should be housed in responsible hobbiest collections aswell as ZOO'S collections.Some species only survive due to private hobbiest's at best.

Who is to say that the people you sold your 1000 eggs to are responsible Hobbyist's? There are way to many keepers out there that coulodn't give a toss and kill most things they get there hands on, even people who were on here shouldn't keep any animals because they don't care enough lol How do you know where all the individuals you sold are now? That's a lot of eggs and no doubt the people who bought those eggs and raised them sold them on for a tidy profit of £20each per individual, that seems like a logical thing to do to me (This is entirely out of your control, you can't dictate who can sell what of yours).
Some species do, you're completely right however never said once in this thread that it shouldn't be done in this hobby at all infact I merely said a controlled breeding that's slowed down a bit more than churning out 100,000 individuals in 1 year, nothing to do with conservation that is supply and demand...

Like I also said, this is a Certificate or Document that would more than likely never be done, I am merely talking about it am I actually preventing you from selling your 1000 eggs? No I haven't done or said such a thing, it is a good thing that a species can have Conservation breeding but why really does it need to done so dramatically without caring really? Like I said it's frowned upon Humans inbreeding, so why is it acceptable that another species is allowed to do it or in the case you made about the T.verrucosus to inbreed even further? What's wrong in leaving the breeding of them a few years until you find even more less or unrelated specimens? That's what I am doing, the only difference is I don't want money from it...
 
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mr cyclone

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Selling eggs or animals for profit is no crime .Some very Diplomatic and valid points,I do however don't agree with ALL of them and i will leave it at that!

regards
 

TylototritonGuy

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Selling eggs or animals for profit is no crime .Some very Diplomatic and valid points,I do however don't agree with ALL of them and i will leave it at that!

regards

Yet again did anywhere in my above comment suggest that Aaron? No I never suggested there is no crime in it but from what I can tell, if anything like this certificate was brought into action you would have to control the breeding not just sell them to anyone.

I don't think either of us agree with any of our points to be honest, I just find it in my own opinion morally wrong and against what I believe in... but everyone can't all agree with each other, if we did life eould be very boring lol

Kind regards
 

mr cyclone

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I think alot of our oppinions differ quite a bit.Our actions the other night were unacceptable,we should both be setting an example,i regret my tyrade of insults none of them reflect my personal oppinions on yourself or my personality.I only said them to hurt your feelings.you have some good ideas and should be put to good use.I was caught. At a bad time and just finished a stressfull week in a high pressure position so for that im sorry
And im sorry to anyone on here that has taken offence
Lots of love
Mr C
 

TylototritonGuy

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I think alot of our oppinions differ quite a bit.Our actions the other night were unacceptable,we should both be setting an example,i regret my tyrade of insults none of them reflect my personal oppinions on yourself or my personality.I only said them to hurt your feeli good ideas and should be put to good use.I was caught. At a bad time and just finished a stressfull week in a high pressure position so for that im sorry
And im sorry to anyone on here that has taken offence
Lots of love
Mr C

Well in all fairness there are always going to be stuff we don't agree on, however some things you have said I can agree with and see you point of view. I apologise for the way I behaved also, for the other night and for the other week, wasn't acceptable behaviour on my part.
In all honesty what I said (insult wise) was out of anger and from not thinking with a clear mind. I would like to simply forget all the previous misdemeanours between us anf simply get on again, I was also having a tough time but that's no excuse fir anything I have said or done.
I would also like to apologise to anyonr I offended too.
I hope we can forgive and forget and shake on it at Gersfeld if you're still coming?

Cheers buddy,

Josh
 

Sean90

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Curious how many tylo keepers keep their own records? Hard copy/ computer file.
Or use pattern marking techniques?
 

TylototritonGuy

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Curious how many tylo keepers keep their own records? Hard copy/ computer file.
Or use pattern marking techniques?

I keep all relevant sata for all my animal species, I have about 40 odd Leather books containing ever scrap of information, from if they haven't eaten to how much they were sprayed lol I even weigh them like once a month. If I give a animal out of my original individuals to another keeper then I give them the book... That's what you call sad ;) haha
 

Sean90

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I do something similar something my father taught me with poultry and theory has been strengthened through my course the importance of records.
 

danicc

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Hi,
just wanted to say that I got a few eggs a couple of weeks ago and I am raising the babies.
Cheers
dan
 
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