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Fire-Belly & Sword-Tail Newts (Cynops & Hypselotriton) Perhaps the most famous and frequently bred newts in captivity, the fire-bellied newts and sword-tail newts are well known throughout the world as being excellent, gregarious captives.


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Old 29th September 2004   #1
nate
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Jesper: Ok, thanks for clearing that up. Click the image to open in full size.

I would only add that describing a new species is not an experiment.

William: No one has ever been able to secure specimens of chenggongensis yet for genetic testing (hmmm...)

Also, you seem to be confusing debates, as their are a few distinct ones and they are muddying each other.

1.) Does Angus possess chenggongensis as described by Kou and Xing?

This is easily debatable without DNA testing. All one needs to do is compare animals with the type description.

2.) Does Angus possess a new species (if not chenggongensis)?

Who knows? Sure, it's possible. I certainly would not be surprised to see new Cynops come out of China. However, Angus' animal doesn't look like anything other than cyanurus to me. If anyone else is seeing something that I'm not, please point it out to me. Otherwise, I see it as no different than posting a photo of what appears to be orientalis and calling it a new species.

3.) Is chenggongensis a valid species?

I agree, this is not debatable without DNA testing.



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Old 29th September 2004   #2
nate
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Ok, here's the translation for the dichotomous key:

Click the image to open in full size.

Vertebral ridge present, skin granular, no light markings on side.....................................3
Vertebral ridge reduced, skin smooth, row of light spots along side...........C. chenggongensis

I have requested Kou and Xing and await it's arrival.

(Message edited by nate on September 29, 2004)



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Old 29th September 2004   #3
jesper
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Hey are you trying to make fun of me NateClick the image to open in full size.
I was trying to compare with how the rest of the scientific field validates data ok?

Life is an experiment Nate, so are identifying newtsClick the image to open in full size.



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Old 29th September 2004   #4
dot
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As someone completely neutral to this discussion, it's interesting to see the lengths that people will go to believe in something, regardless of factual information.

I admire the hope, but the data seems to be pointing in the opposite direction.



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Old 29th September 2004   #5
Tim Johnson
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For dummies like me who didn't know what a dichotomous key was before now, here's a link to explain:

http://www.srvhs.org/staff/teachers/...mousKeyLab.pdf



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Old 29th September 2004   #6
ira
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this thread is off the hook.



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Old 29th September 2004   #7
angus
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Nate,

Can you make a conclusion on this discussion?



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Old 29th September 2004   #8
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I think the discussion between Nate and myself hasn't really to do with the chenggongensis thread, which concerns the claim of Angus that his animals are chenggongensis. I am critical to the lack of critical scrutiny of the articles that defines new species.
They should be subjects to independent reviews etc, not one such has come out since the 1983 description of chenggongensis. This seriously questions the scientific value of the description but foremost damages the public's(that's us!) belief in it - just look at us having this conversation. A couple of photos and a english translation (together with genetic testing) should restore it though.

When it comes to Angus' animals they should first be compared to cyanurus, it is obvious that they lack the dorsolateral stripes and look very much like cyanurus.

(Message edited by jesper on September 29, 2004)



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Old 29th September 2004   #9
mattias
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No, it is highly interesting.
If not interested then rest in silence.

Me myself am a little surprised about that the moderator is the one having severe problems with keeping the debate on a nice level.

Words as premature and alike have no place in such a debate. The interest lies not in prestige of who is right and who is wrong, but in getting answers and information about the species. Please understand that people can have different opinions, without being unpolite or aggressive.

No offence, ok?

/M



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Old 29th September 2004   #10
angus
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Oh! Jesper.
Yes, this is a good suggestion you have made; use my chenggongensis"?" to compare with cyanurus.
Well, I have an idea. How about I send some of my chenggongensis and cyanurus to several reputable caudata guys and see what they said.
The following people is who I want to send my newts to, of course, I will ask them if they want to receive my newts and give us opinion before I send.
1. Tim Johnson
2. Henk Wallays
3. Harry Dresens

(Message edited by anguslee on September 29, 2004)

(Message edited by anguslee on September 29, 2004)



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Old 29th September 2004   #11
mattias
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That was to Dot, Ira and others not interested in the thread.

/M



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Old 29th September 2004   #12
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Mattias: My apologies if you feel I have been anything but polite. Likewise, apologies to Angus for any potential misunderstandings. Jesper and I always give each other a hard time, but it's always in good spirit Click the image to open in full size.

As always, it's very easy to see too far into written text and make assumptions as to the intent of the person without the benefit of vocal inflections, facial expressions, etc. I'm sure Philipp and Russ can attest to this.

I don't see anything wrong with words like "premature" (perhaps you were thinking of immature?) or "alike", as they seem completely civil to me in everyday conversation, but I do apologize if they offended you. I surely wouldn't use a word like "prestige" as you have. Rest assured, my only intent is to bring to light information that helps to clarify the situation and may have not been otherwise accessible to those involved.

'nuff said!

Angus: I've already concluded it and understand your position. Tim and Jesper have asked for additional translations, that is all. I think it's fantastic that you wish to send animals to the people mentioned, and maybe they are a new species afterall, it's always possible. I look forward to the results and additional photos!



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Old 30th September 2004   #13
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Angus:
Can't you take photos of the parts of your "chenggongensis?" that is different from the cyanurus and post them here - you have mentioned that there are several dissimularities.



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Old 2nd October 2004   #14
Tim Johnson
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Here's the reference to C. chenggonensis found in Herpetology of China (Zhao & Adler 1993):

Click the image to open in full size.

I had no idea they were found at such high elevations Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 2nd October 2004   #15
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Hi Tim,
So are you going to get some animals from Angus? I'm very curious...Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 2nd October 2004   #16
Tim Johnson
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Jesper, that all depends on Angus. I think the operational word here is "discretion" Click the image to open in full size.

It would be nice if they turn out to be a new species altogether...Cynops angusi?

I've driven all the way through the lush southern part of Yunnan before, and I wouldn't be surprised if there turns out to be an undescribed Cynops species, or at least subspecies, in some of the more remote parts of that huge province. I think that's what Angus means when he talks about China being an "Amazon" of sorts.

Take a look at the Paramesotriton laoensis, for instance. Laos is adjacent to Yunnan...

(Message edited by TJ on October 02, 2004)



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Old 2nd October 2004   #17
Tim Johnson
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Some pics of Xishuangbanna (southern Yunnan):

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

(Message edited by TJ on October 02, 2004)

(Message edited by TJ on October 05, 2004)



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Old 2nd October 2004   #18
Tim Johnson
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New species? Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

(I'll delete this one soon)



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Old 2nd October 2004   #19
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Wow, awesome photos Tim. I'd live there if I were a newt. Sorry Tim, I supposed that since Angus asked openly and would do it to prove something openly the matter would be open to inquiriesClick the image to open in full size.



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Old 2nd October 2004   #20
Tim Johnson
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No prob at all. I'm just the diplomatic type, that's all. Click the image to open in full size.

Yeah, it's an awesome place, Yunnan. I am definitely going there again someday Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.



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