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Tiger Salamander & Axolotl (Ambystoma tigrinum, A. mavortium spp, etc.) The Tiger Salamanders and the Axolotl are so popular amongst hobbyists that they have been given their own topic. If you're particularly interested in the Axolotl, there is a large section of the forum devoted mainly to beginner Axolotl enthusiasts (not this topic).


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Old 5th July 2011   #1
Evan
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Question What subspecies of Tigers?

I just go two Tiger salamanders they are vigorous eaters and are always on the go. I just don't know what subspecies they are. One looks like a Barred tiger and the other doesn't. So what are they?

Picture one is the one that looks like a barred tiger and picture four is the other one.

The last picture is of the 20 gallon tank.
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Old 5th July 2011   #2
Kaysie
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Without locality data, it's impossible to tell by pattern alone.



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Old 6th July 2011   #3
Evan
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Do you mean by location. As in what store i bought them from or what state they are fun?



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Old 6th July 2011   #4
Kaysie
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Locality data means where the original population (their parents, and their parents' parents) breeds. Even if they were bred 'in captivity' (which, by the way, I wouldn't believe from anybody unless they had obvious proof), locality data is still important in some breeding programs, especially with Asian species.



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Old 6th July 2011   #5
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

I have no idea. I just got them from a pet store in IL. They might be barred tigers from Texas or California tiger salamanders. I don't know.



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Old 6th July 2011   #6
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Not only with Asian species. Let us remind of the cases of Tiger salamander and Fire salamander breeding projects here in Europe. Valid locality data, is important since there are many morphs and different patterns.



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Old 6th July 2011   #7
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

The guy at the pet store said that the pet store bought them from a breeder in IL.



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Old 6th July 2011   #8
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

I'd bet the farm that isn't true. There are no large-scale CB programs of tigers in the US, and if they're adults (which yours are), they were most likely collected from vernal ponds after they migrated there for spring breeding. Ambystomatids are notoriously hard to find outside of breeding season. And unfortunately, they mass-congregate during breeding time, which makes them vulnerable to unscrupulous collection.

But that's my whole point. If you don't know where they came from, you'll never know what species they are. If you got them in Illinois, chances are they're eastern's, A. tigrinum. They're quite prevalent in the northern part of the state. But barring genetic testing, you'll never know for sure.




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Old 6th July 2011   #9
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

How are they adults if they are only about 3 inches long.



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Old 6th July 2011   #10
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

That animal sitting next to your hand is not 3 inches long, unless you have the hands of a freakishly small toddler.

I also have that exact same water dish, and I know for a fact it's at least 8 inches in diameter.



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Old 6th July 2011   #11
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

I just did a measurement. They are 6 in exactly.



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Old 13th October 2011   #12
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

They look like a variation of a Eastern Tiger Salamander. If they are already adult size then they are more than likely wild caught.



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Old 30th March 2012   #13
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frogman View Post
The guy at the pet store said that the pet store bought them from a breeder in IL.
If it's from Illinois it's a Grey Tiger Salamander like mine.




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Old 31st March 2012   #14
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

No, it would be an eastern. Grays [Ambystoma mavortium diaboli or potentially A.diaboli] reach the eastern fringe of the range in western MN, and are replaced in most of MN and everywhere to the east by easterns [A.tigrinum]. Even based on color, there's no way the animals in this thread are grays, which are basically dark gray with small black spots and no yellow.



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Old 31st March 2012   #15
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

I can't pin point what species but I have to say its a "southwestern" species for sure. Definitely not an Eastern species. Eastern Tigers have a certain snout shape to them, more pointed. Western species are well known for the "barred" appearance.

I'd bet the farm and the plantation that Tiger Salamander wasn't captive breed. I have some Tiger Salamanders directly from IL.

Here's how they look like the IL brand of Ambystoma tigrinum.
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Old 31st March 2012   #16
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

In my experience, easterns and Californias tend to be spotted, while westerns are barred or blotched with light coloring [obviously excepting grays]. Easterns have a huge range and two genetic lineages and are regularly collected and sold in the pet trade, though place of origin is rarely provided. A range of variation in their patterns is to be expected, even approaching barred. After all, easterns ARE the ones originally described as tigers. Barred are normally sold as such for a much higher price, and both barred and blotched are fairly easily identified [though not necessarily from one another] by their large elongate blotches or networks of color.

To be honest Jaymes, yours look remarkably similar to blotched. However, the one clearly has eastern spotting [round to ovoid] while the other seems to have grossly enlarged spots or reduced black interstices, whereas blotched tend to have obvious networks of dark and light colors [I've seen olive, lime, lemon, and orange coloration]. The amount of variation is precisely why it can be very difficult to ID tigers from the pet trade.

Where snout shape is concerned, I wouldn't expect anything reliable, as that's something which can change with diet [eg. cannibal morphs], and I can't say I've noticed a significant difference among the many of three species and one additional subspecies I've seen.



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Old 31st March 2012   #17
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FrogEyes View Post
No, it would be an eastern. Grays [Ambystoma mavortium diaboli or potentially A.diaboli] reach the eastern fringe of the range in western MN, and are replaced in most of MN and everywhere to the east by easterns [A.tigrinum]. Even based on color, there's no way the animals in this thread are grays, which are basically dark gray with small black spots and no yellow.
Hey umsallie expert i wild caught my grey i LIVE IN MN IN THE TWIN CITIES AREA AND YA



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Old 31st March 2012   #18
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

The tigers in question are "Barred" Tigers, Ambystoma mavortium mavortium, just not a particularly nicely marked pair (relatively speaking). Jaymes is on the money. Tiger patterning varies widely in populations and obviously through subspecies. I've got 5 Barred Tigers from northwest Texas, collected by me as small larvae in 2007. One is not much more marked than your second tiger, while the others vary quite a bit, from splashes to bars to stripes. If I had to name a state for the origin of yours, my money would be on Colorado or a neighbouring state, since the wild barred tigers that our friend Paris photographed there many years ago are consistent with that pattern.



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Old 31st March 2012   #19
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by greytigersallie View Post
Hey umsallie expert i wild caught my grey i LIVE IN MN IN THE TWIN CITIES AREA AND YA
I'm aware you live in MN. I am also aware that gray tigers only occur marginally in MN, do not occur east of MN, and do not look like the animals in this thread. Animals in the Twin Cities area [and almost the entire state] are A.tigrinum, not A.mavortium. Grays are only recorded at the extreme west edge of the state. I don't need my field guides to know that animals east of MN are A.tigrinum, but as it happens the ONLY field guides I have on hand right now are both guides for MN. What little they have to say on the matter supports my position. Check your facts.

As an aside, the distinction between A.m.mavortium and A.m.melanostictum is one of the more questionable identities, and it seems likely that everything called "blotched" is just a more northerly variant of the barred [ie. A.m.mavortium]. Testing on A.m.diaboli has been minimal, so its current status remains conjectural. It has been suggested that grays are a hybrid between barred and eastern, a subspecies of western, identical to blotched or barred, or possibly a distinct species in their own right. I am surprised, given their wide range, that they haven't been included in more thorough studies. Technically though, the status of the name itself can only be determined by testing specimens from Devil's Lake ND.




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Old 31st March 2012   #20
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Default Re: What subspecies of Tigers?

Cool animals! If you want my opinion, I'd say they are barred tigers... But as it has already been established, you can never be really sure unless you pick it off the ground itself!



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