Need your help.....lethargic newts...

"As most individuals directly or indirectly originate from Thailand it can be assumed that the temperature should be in the 55 - 75°F. range although as low as 40°F. and as high as 85°F. will be tolerated for short periods. Below 50°F. and these salamanders enter a period of dormancy (which proves integral where breeding is to be attempted)." Mandarin Caresheet (Marc Staniszewski)

my newts appear to me to be in this "dormancy period" but the temperature is roughyl 70F

They react slower, hunt slower, swallow slower and are often hiding with their eyes closed, unless disturbed. Two are not eating to my knowledge.

The room was warmer about two weeks ago - there does seem to have been a drop in temperature along with the weather because i notice it is cold in the room.

Could my thermomenter be lying?

Or are my newts unwell - i did think this at first - but they seemt to show any other symptoms.

Apart from the one that died and came back to life of course!

any help much appreciated

OK, well that may be Marc's experience, but knowing a number of people who regularly breed Tylototriton shanjing, the Mandarin Newt, I can tell you that 15 degrees C is more than low enough a "winter" temperature for breeding these newts in the summer successfully. I think it's important to not take any one information source as "gospel" and to get a few informed opinions first, rather than rely on one.

Now as far activity, etc. If these are newly acquired shanjing, they're probably pretty timid - like hiding out for a while. Even tame ones that are uncovered suddenly in bright light after being in darkness or near darkness will squint for a while and not move for a while.

How long have you had these? How are you keeping them? Newly imported adult shanjing often fair pretty badly in captivity initially and it's quite usual for a significant percentage to die. These newts will feed from 15-25+ degrees C (~60-80F).

John:
my three shanjing:

my shanjing are not very new captives. they were kept in my herp shop since june. They were healthy and thriving (i saw them and their setup) I bought them in august. They settled in almost immediately and were very active diurnally until a couple of weeks ago.

I did have a temporarily waterlogged substrate which i changed. ever since it was changed (from cocunut fibre to soil) the newts were lethargic. i was worried about two which i suspected had mouth rot. these were seperated and treated wiht fish compunds for a few days - however i am confident they do not/ did not ahve mouth rot.

these newts are still seperate from the third newt but all newts in the last week or so have been lazy and do not emerge very often at dawn or dusk

they eat only sporadiclaly and dont show much of an interest in food

this coincides both with the new soil setup and a significant drop in temperature - (which even i can feel being in the room)

I now believe i am keeping them too cold but im not sure whether i should let them inot a period of dormancy - its not going to get warmer for many months now!

should i heat them upa bit and let them go into dormancy after a month or two

---

sorry to let you read thru all that. i am not sure what is significant nad what is not, but id appreciate your help

thanks

Mark (newtboy)

<ul>[*]Tylototriton shanjing, particularly wild caught, really hate water - if kept too damp for more than a few days they invariably get sick. Captive bred ones are less sensitive to this moisture for some reason. You have to keep them only a little bit moist. Ideally, a moisture gradient should be present in their terrarium with lots of hiding places scattered throughout so they can find what they like best. I've heard different people recommend different substrates. I'm a fan of gravel for Tylototriton in general, not just T. shanjing, but some people recommend hortag and others recommend soil or leaf mould. I wouldn't use peat moss - too acidic, and most potting soil/compost either has additives or is too acidic. <LI>Fish medicines are frequently quite toxic to amphibians, and amphibians usually require different means of administration and different dosage to fish - you may have mildly poisoned them, which wouldn't have helped. <LI>What are you feeding them on? How are you feeding them? How much? How often? <LI>20 degrees C is fine for T. shanjing - make sure they're at a reasonably constant temperature (a few degrees variance over 24 hours is ok, but not sudden). Don't keep them in a draft - that will dry everything out very quickly and you don't want moisture levels to change suddenly. <LI>No one I know who keeps T. shanjing actually hibernates them - rather, they over-winter them at a lower temperature, but they usually feed all through that time, just not so much. In case you want a reference for this, I can give you the details of some. One that sticks in my mind is Jürgen Fleck's article in elaphe 7(2) 1999, entitled "Further observations of the genera Echinotriton/Tylototriton" (it's in German), in which he discusses similar breeding procedures for both T. shanjing and T. kweichowensis - over-wintering at 15 degrees C and gradually raising of the temperature to 20 degrees or more and mating resulting shortly thereafter. The water level is simultaneously increased. A friend in the Netherlands has bred T. shanjing numerous times and he has mentioned keeping them at 16 degrees C in the winter and up to 25 degrees C in the summer.[/list]
I hope all of this info helps. Good luck.

thanks for your help

what type of gravel do you use?

thanks again

Mark (newtboy)

i feed a couple of waxworm and earthworm usually twice a week. usually voracious and keen feeders

two havent eaten for a week
(as far as i know)

Mark

Well, as long as it's too big for them to get in their mouths, it's fine. You have to make sure it's not too big though so things like crickets don't escape into the matrix. I recommend you use some sort of soil (garden soil would be fine) underneath the gravel. That should help retain moisture, and you can plant in it (make the gravel layer about 2 or 3 cm deep). You don't need a water bowl or anything - T. shanjing never uses it. The bigger the vivarium the better, and a variety of cover is a good idea. Make sure the tank is well ventilated, to prevent build up of moisture in the air in the vivarium and development of mould.

I just saw your message above - it's hard to say without seeing them in person. I'd say it's probably one of the following: too moist, too little ventillation, too dry, or mite infestation - have you looked around the base of the legs for little white things ? Are there any crawling elsewhere on the body? These stress the newts out and seem to be a problem for small terrestrial vivaria that aren't well "balanced".

definetly no mites

mesh lid - never any condensation - so i believe ventilation is ok - theres even an adjustable side vent

very sure its not too moist - its possibly too dry - i find the soil loses moisture very quickly - even when misted daily

any ideas on retaining moisture?

thanks once again

Mark

Ok, from what you're saying, it seems like the moisture levels are changing radically over a very short period of time, again and again. Over time that could lead to what you're experiencing, as the newts get more and more stressed.

I usually get a large piece of plastic (a plastic bag even) and stretch it across part of the vivarium's top and then put the lid on it - this reduces the rate of water loss, depending on how much of the top you actually cover. For my T. shanjing I cover about half of the vivarium with plastic, with a large hole size mesh lid over this, but I'm just keeping one adult at the moment, so it's not a big vivarium (about 45 cm x 30 cm / 18 inches x 12 inches). If you have something bigger, you might need to cover more of the top. You need to make it so you don't have to water the tank more than once every 4-7 days. If the moisture level can stay pretty constant over that time it's a good thing. Plants will help you accomplish this. Even having a small dish of water there to provide atmospheric moisture (the newt won't use it) isn't a bad idea. You need to make sure that it's just a little moist, not dry and definitely not damp, with decent air exchange - if you see mould after playing with the ventilation, then you need to change it again asap.

I have three that seem to like going into the water every now and again. I usually take it as a sign that I'm keeping them too dry and mist as well as replensih the gradiant and after a day or so they are back on the land.

Another friend of mine has his in and out of the water almost equally. I haven't asked him all of his specifics but I believe he is keeping them correctly.

Just tossing out some of my observations.

Hmmm, I've only ever seen T. shanjing go into water on purpose (when not in breeding season) up to the top of their legs and barely onto the body. I've never seen one submerge itself otherwise. In breeding mode (20 +{o}C or over with high humidity), animals may enter the water more frequently and will completely submerged.

If they're entering the water on purpose because it's too dry, that's not a good thing.

Forgive me pleas,e but I take your friend's observations with a grain of salt, or at least I don't believe he's keeping them correctly if they're entering the water completely on a regular basis.}

Yeah, mine go into the water about that deep....maybe sometimes up to the sides of their belly, but never right over their back....I don't give them that deep of water for fear of them drowning.

As for my friend I know what you mean. I may ask him more about his setup to hear what he has for them.