The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store

Notices

Eurasian Newts (Triturus, former Triturus, Calotriton & Euproctus).. Triturus and its relatives (Ichthyosaura/Mesotriton, Lissotriton, and Ommatotriton) are a diverse and widespread group of newts. While mainly European, several species can be found in the Near and Middle East. Euproctus, the brook newts, are confined to Corsica and Sardinia.


Reply

 

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23rd December 2010   #1
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Ommatotriton ophryticus

Well, recently I got ommatotriton ophryticus cb, I've read on this forum many disasters because of excessive moisture, now I have them in a terrarium (60/30 cm) with a humidity gradient: dry corks, napkins slightly damp paper and a small pond, I write this, because I do not understand the high mortality ommatotriton: excessive moisture and susceptibility to high temperatures?.
Thanks and best regards and sorry for being a poor student of English.



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2010   #2
Mark
Administrator
 
Mark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 3,253
Gallery Images: 898
Comments: 26
Rep: Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11Mark goes to 11
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I can't really help answer your question because I too am new to this species and having my first attempt at raising a small group. There are a number of Ommatotrition threads on this forum discussing the difficulties of raising these newts and they generally conclude that mass die-offs are caused by incorrect moisture levels. The difficulties seem to occur at a particular life stage before adulthood but animals that make it through become robust once past the "tricky stage".

I myself have been following the care advice found in on Amphibian Information Centre

A small plastic container with soil substrate filled with moss and bark. The newts have grown very quickly in comparison with other species I've raised. From what I've read their tolerance to temperature extremes is good. If (fingers crossed) mine make it to adulthood I plan to keep them largely aquatic outdoors.



Mark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2010   #3
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 34
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

They are quite tolerant to high temps, after all look where they come from! Of course they have their limits, but room temp should be perfectly ok.
Mine had a slow start and then a period of very rapid growth. One in particular grew very fast and was almost a sub-adult when it died. My group died one by one over a period of a few months, all the same way. Sluggishness, change in skin texture followed by decoloration and rapid deterioration of the skin, then death.
I made the mistake of assuming that "dry" meant just slightly moist...and i believe despite having very good ventilation, it was the humidity that caused the skin problems. However, i did offer a gradient and they tended to choose the more humid areas. The people that have succeeded with this species that i know of keep them in drier conditions than i did. I think your current set-up is not going to work well....



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2010   #4
Caleb Leeke
(caleb)
Site Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 509
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Azhael View Post
They are quite tolerant to high temps, after all look where they come from!
...but there are a highland species (1200m+ according to amphibiaweb), so it's not as hot as you might think. I've heard an anecdote of one collecting trip for this species where they all died (presumably from high temperature) before they reached the foot of the mountain.

I am raising this species at the moment- my third attempt. I am using paper towel with moss on top, moistened very slightly, and they are growing very quickly (much faster than alpine newts kept under the same conditions). They are kept at low room temperature.

I'd agree that they like it dry- possibly drier than any other species I've kept. If the substrate feels moist to the touch, it's too wet. They'll huddle together if they are getting too dry. I'm spraying mine very lightly every 1-2 days.



caleb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2010   #5
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 34
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I didnīt pretend to say that they tolerate anything xD I probably should have phrased it differently, since i wasnīt refering to the country of origin (which is definitely an area of a hot persuasion) but to their dry microhabitat. As a species that likes drier conditions, they are more tolerant of higher temps on land than many other species. Kind of like Neurergus or Pleurodeles, really...
As itīs almost always the case, their tolerance is higher when they are terrestrial. Iīm just guessing here, but i would venture that the deaths from your anecdote were possibly caused by high temps in conjunction with inadequate humidity, or maybe even because the animals where collected in aquatic phase.
When kept terrestrial and dry, they are certainly quite tolerant (to a point).



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.

Last edited by Azhael; 24th December 2010 at 14:59.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th December 2010   #6
Ken Worthington
Member
 
Ken Worthington's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 419
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: Ken Worthington has given consistently excellent advice and informationKen Worthington has given consistently excellent advice and informationKen Worthington has given consistently excellent advice and informationKen Worthington has given consistently excellent advice and information
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Hi, on a side note, I've just looked at the AmphibiaWeb section on this species. It states that they generally live above 1200m above sea level, but then goes on to say: "The deepest record is 400 m below sea level in one cave in the North Caucasus." I find this quite remarkable.
Sorry that I've nothing useful or practical to add to this thread, but I thought I'd mention this as I was very surprised



__________________
"Ripples in still water, when there is no pebble tossed, nor wind to blow" Grateful Dead
Ken Worthington is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2010   #7
Molch
Prolific Member
 
Molch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Age: 52
Posts: 1,385
Gallery Images: 5
Comments: 7
Rep: Molch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I have no experience with these myself, but this fascinates mer:

since they come from drier habitats than other newts, what physiological skin adaptation do they have to weather the dry phase? Then, when they mature, what changes take place in skin physiology to get them ready for water? And most importantly, what cues in the environment trigger those physiological changes? Is it temperature, photo period, air humidity, food, all of the above?

Are there any insights from their wild habitats into this that one might use in captivity?



Molch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2010   #8
Molch
Prolific Member
 
Molch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Age: 52
Posts: 1,385
Gallery Images: 5
Comments: 7
Rep: Molch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I'm having another thought: people say they give them a moisture gradient to pick from, and that the newts will choose the moister soil but then die...this would be based on the assumption that they "know" which moisture level is best for hem.

...however, if these have evolved in very dry environments where moisture is limiting, they might be programmed to seek out moisture where present, so when offered greater moisture than what would be available in their natural surroundings, they'll "overdose" by hanging out in too wet a place.

It's a common evolutionary strategy: organisms are best at seeking out whatever condition or nutrient is most limited in their surroundings. Then, when put in an environment where that factor is abundant, they tend to overdose. It's why people crave too much salt and fat, for example :)



Molch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2010   #9
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 34
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

As for physiological adaptations, they are limited. Species that live in drier areas rely heavily on choosing the right microhabitats. So while the surface humidity might be close to inexistent, the right place under the right rock might provide just enough humidity to avoid disecation. Iīm sure there are some physiological adaptations that enable them to reduce the amount of water they loose and to tolerate greater loss than other species, but they are still dependant on certain levels of humidity. Extreme dryness is lethal for every caudate.

The skin certainly changes between aquatic and terrestrial phase, a fact that is very easy to observe because the "texture" changes dramatically. Also, if you watch a newt after it has gone from one medium to the other for some time, you will inevitably observe the newt shedding, thus adapting its skin to the new conditions. Also, newts in terrestrial phase have larger amounts of keratin in their skins which provides some degree of insulation and prevents excessive transpiration. Other groups use mucus for the same effect.

In nature, the triggers are mainly environmental. These produce changes in hormonal levels which in turn produce physiological changes. The main trigger is temperature, but other factors can prove to be very important such as photoperiod, humidity, atmospheric pressure...
Food is important in that an underfed individual canīt afford all the energy cost that the necessary physiological changes require.

I believe you may be spot on. We take for granted that they know better and that they choose the perfect place for them at any given time. However, as you say, species that are adapted to more extreme environments might have an urge to take advantage of the "good times". I think perhaps itīs the levels of humidity in the air that cause problems since there is a correlation among skin diseases and bad ventilation. This would perhaps explain why this species seems to do so well outdoors even in areas that are substantially more humid than their native range.
In my case iīm almost convinced that it was my fault for providing too much humidity. I have a friend that is currently raising this species with greater success than i did and his conditions are definitely much more mediterranean.
Still, it was a rookie mistake for me to give into the whim of wanting this spectacular species. I was too green for an advanced species like this one.



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.

Last edited by Azhael; 25th December 2010 at 15:06.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th December 2010   #10
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Quote:
I think your current set-up is not going to work well....
What is the part of my own that you do not see functional?

newts have a gradient of dry till damp and one of the smaller newts use the small pool (very planted) from time to time, I follow the advice of the breeder who offered me my newts, the ommatotriton are outside photoperiod with a real and have a Mediterranean climate.


Greetings



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2010   #11
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 34
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I think your set-up wonīt work because itīs basically the same as the one i used for my last two O.ophryticus and they too died.
While paper towels are very practical, they are just too humid for this species in my opinion. It certainly did not work at all for me.



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2010   #12
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Above the kitchen towels (with very low humidity), there are many cork bark completely dry at the moment the animals are not confined in damp or dry. Newts use all available microhabitats and amphibians are eating very well, I read that the symptoms of skin breakdown in newts, is excess moisture, is this true?, might not be for another reason? , Internet looking for the little information from people who raised ophryticus, talk about supporting the dry weather better than other newts, but says nothing about problems with skin breakdown due to excessive moisture.
A greeting.



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2010   #13
Rodrigo
(Azhael)
Site Contributor
 
Azhael's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Age: 34
Posts: 6,645
Gallery Images: 19
Comments: 2
Rep: Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)Azhael has maxed out Caudata.org's Reputation System (we are not worthy!)
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Mine had several dry hides above the paper sheets too (bark pieces stacked over flat pieces of slate that sat on top of the paper) and they still died. Itīs your choice, iīm just saying that i kept them just like you are keeping them and it did not work at all.



__________________
Please become acquainted with the forum rules.

Useful Links: Caudata Culture | Species Accounts | Care Articles | Newt and Salamander FAQs | Axolotl.org | Axolotl FAQs | Forum Functions.


Non Timetis Messor.
Azhael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26th December 2010   #14
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

How long you lived the newts to you? Before the salamanders sick, "stopped eating or moving?



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 28th December 2010   #15
Caleb Leeke
(caleb)
Site Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 509
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Worthington View Post
Hi, on a side note, I've just looked at the AmphibiaWeb section on this species. It states that they generally live above 1200m above sea level, but then goes on to say: "The deepest record is 400 m below sea level in one cave in the North Caucasus."
I think this should be 400m below the surface, rather than 400m below sea level. Kuzmin (who wrote that entry) also wrote in 'Amphibians of the FSU': "The deepest record is from the Nazarovsakaya Cave (Alek Mountain Ridge, North Caucasus) at a depth of 400m". I've no idea of the altitude of the cave entrance, but I suspect it's 1000m+.



caleb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 29th December 2010   #16
joeysgreen
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Nationality:
Posts: 48
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: joeysgreen has shown reliable knowledge
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

I wonder if this is species has a similar natural history to the spadefoot toads of North America. They remain in hiding, sometimes for years if summer rains do not come. When rain finally floods the area, explosive feeding and breeding occur before the ephemeral water bodies dry up.



joeysgreen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2011   #17
Caleb Leeke
(caleb)
Site Contributor
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 509
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11caleb goes to 11
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

It seems that banded newts in Israel (now O. vittatus) don't wait for the rains- they apparently migrate to their breeding sites while the ponds are still dry, according to:

Pearlson, O., & Degani, G., 2008. The Life History of Triturus vittatus vittatus (Urodela) in Various Habitats. Asiatic Herpetological Research 11: 93-97.



caleb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th January 2011   #18
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Hello, settings for Ommatotriton ophryticus going well.
One of the newts, has already entered the water (water level 3 cm), I will move this newt more water, a more agua.Espero aquaterrariums with the other Ommatotriton ophryticus follow the example of his brother.
Once water gain weight faster.
In the summer I will be moving to a aquaterrariums ophryticus Ommatotriton more terrestrial.
At the moment no ommatotriton had problems due to excessive humidity or drowning.



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2011   #19
Kroak
(erfus)
Member
 
erfus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Nationality:
Posts: 66
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: erfus has started on the right path
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

Hello, my ommatotriton update, I have two young and two sub adults, subadults remain in the water and grow faster, the smaller are still ommatotriton land.
Installation is fairly functional microhabitats: dry, wet and pond.
Regards.

‪Ommatotriton video‬‏ - YouTube



erfus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 5th August 2011   #20
Molch
Prolific Member
 
Molch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Nationality:
Age: 52
Posts: 1,385
Gallery Images: 5
Comments: 7
Rep: Molch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgMolch is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Ommatotriton ophryticus

lovely animals! Congratulations on raising them.

Can you speculate on what you may have done differently as opposed to those who had less luck raising this species?



__________________
Stick 'em with the pointy end
Molch is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ommatotriton ophryticus BILLY JAMES FS: United Kingdom (just UK) 12 6th November 2010 11:18
Wanted Ommatotriton ophryticus darthsteveo Wanted in the USA 0 9th August 2010 23:06
Ommatotriton ophryticus 'nesterovi' coendeurloo Photo & Video Gallery 1 1st March 2009 23:02
Triturus (Ommatotriton) vittatus ophryticus juraj Photo & Video Gallery 6 25th May 2007 07:52
Ommatotriton ophryticus caresheet? coen Newt and Salamander Help 3 3rd November 2006 23:02


All times are GMT. The time now is 18:21.