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'Dog Face' newts

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geo

Guest
I happened upon two so called 'dog faced' newts in a pet shop today. They are some 110mm long and have a paddle ended tail, 4 toes, one has more prominent central red stripe and red underside. Can anyone identify them and offer help on water temperature, food etc?
Unfortunately, I noticed when I got them home that one has a gash on it's head (see photo) so I'm keeping it out of water to try to get it to heal, but keeping it on a damp mat - any problem doing this? Any other advice?

Thanks
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chris

Guest
they're paramesotriton caudopunctatus. I should think the terrestrial setup will do well in drying the wound out, but make sure its clean so bacteria don't set in. Perhaps papertowelling would be better. It doesn't look too deep, so I hope its OK. If it gets infected, put very dilute hydrogen peroxide on a Q-tip and dab it on. Leave it for a few seconds then wash it off. That'll kill off any fungus/bacteria. If the terrestrail setup seems to be really stressful (climbing up the sides, refusal to eat) put it into a sterile aquatic setup, and it should start eating. Watch out for fungus though and treat with fish medecine (dabbing on neat), salt baths or hydrogen peroxide. Out of the ones of these I've bought, two have died from mouth fungus - lots of them are apparently caught on fish hooks by locals who sell them on to wholesalers. Watch out for swelling in the lips.
Hope he/she gets better.
Chris
 
A

a

Guest
Where abouts did you get it from. I know a shop selling 'dog face newts' labeled as Paramesitriton hongkongensis, but there is always confusion with paramesotrion newt identificaion, the shops dont really help.
I would only keep it on land if the newt prefers it, i kept mine in an aquatic set up. The cut does look serious and you must make sure that it is completly separated, preferably in a differnt room. The wound does resemble what killed off my entire group of green toads, bufo viridis, spreading from an idiviul i added to the group. keep it at about room temp, or slightly cooler. I have a parameotrton newt which had an infection in its head, which ate down through the skull. I tried treatment for months, but evenually gave up and just left it alone, as it was just getting worse. Miraculously, after leaving it lone for a few weaks it began to heal, even though the water was all murky and dirty.
WIth the healthy one, they like to be kept with runnining water at room temp. Mine love eathworms, and they make a big part of their diet. THey also eat dapnia!, bloodworms, and mine like to try and eat my fingers.

Hope this helps

AJfr0ggy
 
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cataldo

Guest
can you post a shot of the tail and the underbelly? it is hard to jump to caudopunctatus without those shots. chris were you going by the slim body and the narrow nose to identify?

cataldo
 
G

geo

Guest
Many thanks for the responses everyone. The wound is weeping a bit still so I'm going to try a dry environment in the hope it scabs over - if that's what newt wounds do (?).

The newt cam from a very large aquarium/reptile/amphibian centre at Stourton in the West Midlands, UK. They had no idea of it's natural habitat.

I'm enclosing a photo of the tail as suggestd and one showing a bit of the underside. The orange is a good indication of underbelly colour which is some 70% oragne mainly in the centre. Can't do a better shot without causing it even more streess than its suffering already.

Thanks again for the help,

Geo
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(Message edited by jennewt on January 10, 2004)
 
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chris

Guest
thats definately a caudo, and a male - has a spot on the tail.
hope the cut heals
 
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cataldo

Guest
Good Chris, I was just wondering how you knew so quickly without further examination "pictures" of the tail, belly etc.. I knew it looked like my caudopunctatus from the top, but they trick me sometimes. I sometimes thought my SKINNY younger fuzhongensis was the spotted tail at a <u>glance</u> from the <u>top</u> at a distance.
 
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chris

Guest
Cataldo, I was going by basic body shape, the greenish colour on the dorsum, the red vertebral ridge and the fairly smooth skin with the rows of rough warts down each side.
Merry Christmas
Chris
 
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a

Guest
How is it doing?
Do you have any other pics of the top of the head, as every time i see it it reminds me what killed 6 green toads. I would make sure you dont introduce any more to the others aquaria for a long period of time, because it took 6 months for the problem to become really worrying (the hole in the skin grew faster)
I hear others from that grop are delevoping the problem.

AJfr0ggy
 
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chris

Guest
yep, one of my caudos has the first signs on the lower back. It took a while after quarantine for the problem to surface. Although they may not be exactly the same shipment, all the collectors, wholesalers etc. were the same. It was easy to see how infections develop in them - shipped on dirty newspapers and cricket eggbox thingies...
Mine is looking OK with antifungal treatment from WaterLife. I caught it in early stages but time will tell what happens to her...
Chris
 
G

geo

Guest
As requested, another picture of the sore. It's not getting worse or any better but the newt isn't eating so I don't hold out much hope for it really. I seemed very stressed in a dry environment so I gave it a little water to sit in, enough to wet it's body but not cover it's head. If I'd known about the methods used to capture these creatures I'd not have bought it, I certainly won't buy any more non-captive bred newts. Neither of the two newts is eating, tried small earth worms (both whole & chopped) and fly larvae but they shy away from them.
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a

Guest
I would try keeping it aquatic as the last thing you want it it to be stressed. Keep daphnia in there, it might nibble at them. It looks just like the thing my toads had, and it looks like its bleeding quite a bit. YOu should try fungal treatmants like suggested, or maybe a saltwater bath.

With my toads i think they started off as a raised bump, turning into the ulcer like hole, which grew to about 2cm long and 1cm wide

I see a hand on the edge, have you separated them yet ? you must separate them. They fungus may spead only through damaged skin, i think it may have spread thought my green toads via cricket bites
Hope it does well,

AJfr0ggy
 

andrew read

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I'm not a vet and this entry should not be interpreted as advice on how to treat your particular animals but only as general information which you can use to inform yourself in your relations with your own vet regarding the treatment of your animals.
The photo of your animal looks to me like it could show a systemic infection (ie. one which will not respond to external treatments alone). Skin ulcers can start out as pure skin infections with no systemic consequences or they can be a symptom of a more serious infection affecting the whole body. If your animal shows any sign of generalised swelling of the whole body then you probably have a systemic infection that will only respond to antibiotics (or similar powerful synthetic drugs). If your animal is seriously ill and you want to cure it you probably won't have time to wait for a conclusive laboratory diagnosis, but you may want to treat it on the basis of a broad spectrum approach. If the cause is a virus then there probably is no treatment except keeping its tank clean and dosing its tank with a general antiseptic such as Myxacin and adding vitamins and minerals in the hope that the animal cures itself. If the cause is a bacterium then you could ask your vet to inject it with a broad spectrum antibiotic combination (biased towards killing gram negative bacteria) such as amikacin at a rate of 10mg per kg plus ceftazidime at a rate of 50mg per kg. This combination will kill most bacteria that cause amphibian disease, but they do have to be injected and can't be given by bath nor by mouth. Whereas the cost of these drugs is negligible because the quantity you would be using is so small, the vet would still have to break open the smallest vial he has available and make up a solution for injecting using saline to a total volume which he can manage (ie. about 100 microlitres (one tenth ml)). The two antibiotics would have to be injected separately (ie. not mixed together in the same syringe), and may have to be repeated at daily intervals for several days. Other antibiotics which can be given by mouth/bath such as the tetracyclines, the 4-quinolones (eg. enrofloxacin), chloramphenicol, potentiated sulphonamides, amoxicillin, the macrolides all have drawbacks because they have large or important gaps in their spectra of activity and therefore fail in broad spectrum treatments. If the cause is a fungus then there is now a very effective group of oral antifungals called the triazoles which have been used to treat amphibian disease. In particular, the triazole Itraconazole (commonly known as Sporanox) has been used and described by Nichols and Lamirande ( see Declining Amphibian Populations Task Force newsletter 'Froglog' number 46, August 2001); the only affordable form of this drug appears to be the capsules containing coated beads; these would need to be broken open and the beads ground to powder in a mortar, and the powder dissolved in dilute acid by vigorous shaking (a solution using fish pH treatments can be prepared to a pH of 5 (which is generally safe for amphibia)) . Nichols and Lamirande used a solution of 100mg per litre for 5 minutes per day, however this concentration is very high and can't be used as a permanent bath. A dose of 4mg per kg body weight once or twice a day is considered safe, so a permanent bath of 4mg per litre, volume equal to twice the newts volume, changed every day should be safe. You could try either method.
If you treat your newt on the basis of a bacterial infection when it is a fungal one or vice versa, you could make matters worse than not treating at all, so it is best to treat for both types at the same time.
Your problem may not even be viral, bacterial or fungal, but may in fact be caused by protozoans, in which case the itraconazole may or may not be effective.
I would therefore start with a broad spectrum approach using amikacin plus ceftazidime plus itraconazole, and if you really want to spend a mint then have swabs taken and sent to a lab for analysis, but I wouldn't hold out much hope for a positive laboratory result.
One other thing you need to bear in mind is that 'curing' an animal of an infection is in itself a very stressful thing, and that even if you do 'kill' the infection your animal may still die from shock.
I wish you all the very best.
andrew read
 
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jennifer

Guest
Andrew, that is an amazing summary! It seems to agree with other information I have read. I am interested in quoting this information for an article in Caudata Culture. Could you please e-mail me?
jpmacke "at" caudata.org
 

andrew read

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anyone is welcome to quote my above entry so long as any quote is attributed to me.
 
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geo

Guest
This is a sad ending to my earlier postings on so called dog faced newts.

The newt with the sore on its head died two weeks ago, the sore just never stopped oozing, quiet a drain on its body's resources as it wasn't eating.

The second newt died yesterday, it had an injury to its lower jaw as shown in the two photos attached. It was never interested in eating and now I can closely examine the wound I can see why. As was commented upon by someone on this message board, the newts are captured with hooks (in Central China in this case I believe) and obviously this causes serious tissue damage.

I'm posting this a salutary tale, the message has to be, obviously, never buy animals from the wild, the people at the bottom end of the supply chain just don't give a damn about the animal, just how much small change it will earn them. I'm certainly not proud at being the guy at the top of this supply chain in this instance, but I'll be sure not to give financial support to this appalling trade ever again.

PS. Thanks Andrew for the very informative posting, for some reason it was not automatically emailed to me so unfortunately was not able to take up any of this advice.

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chris

Guest
The jaw injuries are caused by their method of capture - fishing hooks...
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My male caudopunctatus has a deformed jaw (like one of Tim's ensicauda) because of this, and another died very quicly due to infected injuries. I heard from AJ Froggy that another 1000 'firebellied newts' possibly paramesotriton has just come into the UK from China....all bad news for chinese caudates...
Chris
 
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edward

Guest
These injuries are also caused by rubbing during holding or in transit as I have seen the same injuries in terrestrial species such as T. shanjing. I strongly doubt that it is easier to catch shanjing by hook than it is to pick them up by hand.
There was also a study done on Desmognathus quadromaculatus that demonstrated that using barbless fly fishing lures was a very effective method to catch the salamanders for study and release. I can try to track the reference down if there is a lot of interest.
 
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