Looking for a Hellbender

I figured that would get your attention

I don't generally run in Amphibian Circles so some of you may know me some may not so I will give a brief intro to qualify my inquiry. I am B W Smith, owner of Animal South (Southern Reptile Education) and author of Venomous Snakes in Captivity. I am a licensed wildlife exhibitor in GA and spearhead several private conservation initiatives. The most notable is that I am working on the first captive breeding program of Eastern Indigo Snakes in GA and one of the few people even licensed to keep them. I also organize and lead Gopher Tortoise Surveys as well as the Rattlesnake Roundup Rescue. I work closely with the state on conservation initiatives and public outreach programs. You can see more of what we do at www.reptileeducation.com

All that being said, I am trying to find 1-3 Hellbenders to be integrated into our outreach programs which expose about 5,000-10,000 people per year to our protected species here in GA. We have several populations in GA in the wild. However, given the precarious status of wild populations, I am not inclined to obtain one in state via a Scientific Collection License. I realize that there are no captive bred specimens yet (at least that I am aware of), so LTC specimens or unreleasable rehabs are preferable.

Impossible? Well, that is what they told me about Indigos too. It took 2 years to get permits and wade through the red tape, but I made it happen. And I am in no rush. It can take several years to track down specimens as far as I am concerned. I have preliminary approval from Department of Natural Resources pending source and specimen information. So the next step is networking and getting the program out there. I figured this was a good place to start.

I realize that Hellbenders in captivity is a controversial subject and I look forward to all viewpoints and any guidance.

I can't offer you any advice on where to obtain any 'benders, but I wish you the best of luck in finding some. I also applaud your not taking specimens from the wild, even if given the permission to do so.

Today I saw a program about hellbenders on the dutch version of National Geographic channel. The program was presented by Nick Baker
It was a quite disburbing item about the decline of the species. He also went to a hellbender breeding station, but I do not now what it was called. Maybe this helps you a it?

I am aware that st Louis zoo, have hellbenders in captivity and have successfully captive breed hellbenders in the past aswell as doing alot of conservation with them in the wild.
I also know that they have bred around 70 juviniles to be released back into the wild, i remember reading about this somewhere.
Dont know if this will be of any help,
good luck.

To be technical, St. Louis had egg laying, but the eggs were not fertile. The release of the juveniles are from collected eggs, which are being head-started.

You might also check with Joe Greathouse at the Good Zoo at Oglebay, WV. They collected a clutch of eggs and had many many larvae to place, though I think most are destined for release back into the wild.
-Tim

Have you contacted the Cryptobranchid Interest Group? Couldn't hurt.

wow,
I had mentioned you can go catch one legally and the post seems to have misteriously been removed.

Anyway, it's legal & ethical.
good luck.

If you bothered to read his post, he said he'd rather not get one from the wild.

While it may be legal in an area, the 'ethical' part is up for debate. It depends on whether you think it's ethical to remove an adult from an area from which the species may or may not be imperiled, further dooming the possibility of that animal contributing to the population.

Your post has been edited/removed because we do not advocate the capture of wild animals on the site.

Kaysie said:

If you bothered to read his post, he said he'd rather not get one from the wild.

While it may be legal in an area, the 'ethical' part is up for debate. It depends on whether you think it's ethical to remove an adult from an area from which the species may or may not be imperiled, further dooming the possibility of that animal contributing to the population.

Your post has been edited/removed because we do not advocate the capture of wild animals on the site.

Click to expand...

this site doesnt completely frown on the capture of wild specimens. you must realize that all our captive animals had to originate somewhere. they were collected in the wild. in order to get CB, they have to come from the wild. all of our lovely CB neururgus and aneides and cynops etc were taken from potentially threatened populations in some areas. allowing the sell of these animals on this site somewhat feeds the desire for these animals. i believe that wild collecting of species fit for captivity from stable populations in a very controlled number is not a bad thing. if it werent for this, we would have no caudates to enjoy. on the other hand... you must realize that some species are just better left in the wild or to be worked with by zoo's and institutions that have the funding to properly care for them. hellbenders are one of these animals. we must really think before we say things and before we take certain actions. BWsmith, i highly respect the fact that you are not willing to take these wonderful creatures from the wild and would rather rescue or be gifted animals. that takes a great deal of self control and forward thinking. i wish you the best of luck with your project.

-josh

The Indigo project is going well. I am still trying to track down a Hellbender to get a program in place. I am patient so I can wait as long as is needed.

Well Said Josh...

Kaysie,
Um, so rather than debate the "ethics" & sway opinion through reason & logic, you just remove and silence differing opinions? Where do ethics come from, people who eat comercially collected seafood? People feeding comercially collected wild food items to "captive born" animals, hunters, fishers,people keeping destructive pet cats that eat native fauna around their houses?
Seems ethics are very subjective. If this site's stance is frowning on wild collection, great! Just don't put down or silence those of us who have no problems with it. My guess is that the vast majority of people on this site have or have had wild collected Caudates or herps. From what I've heard, the owner of the site has sold wild caught caudates in the past on this site as well as many other people. I DON'T have a problem with that, but I do have a problem being Censored when I'm not advocating violence, illegal activity nor be vulgar.

Chuck

I didn't remove your post. However, I did edit this one. The advice you offered is not appropriate, given the mission of this site, and given the wishes of B.W. Smith.

Josh: I am familiar with the policies of the site; I work here. I'm also aware of the origin of all CB animals. But where is the point in continuing to collect specimens from the wild if they have NEVER reproduced in captivity, even at large institutions?

There is no argument for the collection of a species that ~doesn't reproduce in captivity and is under significant threat.

Just to play devil's advocate since it went off topic anyway, that situation is the best argument for RESPONSIBLE and regulated collection of wild and rare specimens. There are not any species that won't breed in captivity, there are only those that we have not figured out the trick. I remember when it was thought that Green Tree Pythons would never be captive produced. That being said, it needs to be regulated collection under special permits, not just someone with a snorkel.

BWSmith said:

Just to play devil's advocate since it went off topic anyway, that situation is the best argument for RESPONSIBLE and regulated collection of wild and rare specimens. There are not any species that won't breed in captivity, there are only those that we have not figured out the trick. I remember when it was thought that Green Tree Pythons would never be captive produced. That being said, it needs to be regulated collection under special permits, not just someone with a snorkel.

Click to expand...

very well said, we just havnt mastered the care of the species that "wont breen in captivity". it will happen. our hobby has come so far... soooo far. we are doing things with species nowadays that we never dreamed of. but we must allow these species to fall into the proper hands until it is figured out.

nice cherry-picking on the editing. Avoid embarrasment at all costs.

John, I disagree with your collecting stance, They do breed in the wild and replace themselves many times over, just because counts are down doesn't mean thery're not out there reproducing. My guess is many of the people studying these things aren't putting on scuba gear and going deep. Anyway I might be wrong but your same argument is made by anti-hunting groups. We do hunt animals that have smaller populations than many of the caudates we enjoy. I'm done on this thread, pm me if you feel the need.

Actually, many studies have shown they are not reproducing at all in some areas. Juveniles from all age classes are notably absent in many populations, showing no reproduction at all for many years. If you've ever been to the areas where hellbenders are found, you'd know there's no need for SCUBA gear.

shotgun said:

nice cherry-picking on the editing. Avoid embarrasment at all costs.

John, I disagree with your collecting stance, They do breed in the wild and replace themselves many times over, just because counts are down doesn't mean thery're not out there reproducing. My guess is many of the people studying these things aren't putting on scuba gear and going deep. Anyway I might be wrong but your same argument is made by anti-hunting groups. We do hunt animals that have smaller populations than many of the caudates we enjoy. I'm done on this thread, pm me if you feel the need.

Click to expand...

I don't like your attitude, honestly. Along with that, it seems you don't know the state of hellbenders in the wild as well as you should if you are considering collecting one.