Mix C. Orientalis with C. Cyanurus

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stanleyc

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Now I know that species mixing is generally frowned upon, but I've seen C. Orientalis being mixed with Pyroghaster and they seem to go well together. I was thinking since both Orientalis and Cyanurus are from around the same area in China and are about the same size, if it's possible for them to be kept in the same enclosure successfully. I have 4 C. Orientalis right now in a 20 gallon, and I plan to put either 1 or 2 Cyanurus in there with them.

Can this work as successfully as the Orientalis/Pyroghaster pair, or is even the O/P pair a good idea at all?
 
Neither one of those are a good mix in my opinion. C. pyrrhogaster get considerably larger than C. orientalis and will out compete them for food, not to mention the stress that goes along with it. Even though C. orientalis and C. cyanurus are the same size, I believe you would have to worry about interbreeding.
 
What are the negatives of interbreeding, would the offspring be infertile? Would there be any other defects?
 
The problem with interbreeding is that the offspring are a genetic worthless mess. If they spread(get sold, mixed again, etc) then the "impurity" extends and all of a sudden you have a population of "something" that is not C.orientalis, nor C.cyanurus. Worst scenario, they become dissolved into one or the two species, and you get a lot of impure worthless animals.

That´s provided the offspring was fertile of course...

I think the mix is a bad idea for another reason....patogens. If your orientalis are WC, the risk of transmiting something to the (i assume) CB cyanurus is high.
 
Are there any cases of this interbreeding actually happening? I somehow doubt it. Does anyone maintain these two species together? Thoughts? They would seem to be very compatible tank mates (please give insight).
 
John said:
Are there any cases of this interbreeding actually happening? I somehow doubt it. Does anyone maintain these two species together? Thoughts? They would seem to be very compatible tank mates (please give insight).
Click to expand...

I have enough of both these species to where I could set up a seperate tank and try it kinda like an experiment? This seems to be a species combination that alot of people ask about and it would be nice to have some first hand information. Just a thought.
 
That would be very interesting indeed, Justin, please do. I've got a tenner on them not interbreeding!
 
The experiment has already been done (inadvertently):
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=34477

This odd-couple C.o. C.p. pair is now living my basement, having been together (exclusively) for many years. I am working with a scientist who is interested in how this crossbreeding is possible at the genetic level. He has DNA samples from both adults and a hybrid offspring.

Please note: I do not condone doing this. None of the hybrid animals will find their way into the pet community. I have never posted about it because I'm afraid that people will get the idea that this is a cool thing to do.

John, do I get that tenner?;)
 
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Here's a photo of one of the babies. I can also post clearer photos of the adults, if anyone wants them.
 

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The tenner is yours.
 
So going by that thread, the fact that the C. orientalis and the C. pyrrhogaster interbred then theoretically C. orientalis and C. cyanurus can interbreed?
 
I would say yes, in theory. But I see a lot more basic biological differences between Co/Cc than I see between Co/Cp. The Cc larvae/juvs seem VERY different in many ways from other Cynops. While larval/juvenile Co and Cp are virtually indistinguishable. However, I don't know if these differences would be of any relevance in whether the species are able to interbreed. I wouldn't rule out the possibility.
 
As Ralf pointed out in another thread, C.cyanurus and C.orientalis would be much closer taxonomically than any of them is to C.pyrrhogaster (since you said that i SO can see the similarities between C.p and Paramesotriton....), so i agree that in theory they should be able to interbreed. Hybrids are however very very complex, and taxonomical closeness is not necessarily a garantee of viability...so perhaps the experiment would be interesting. I really hope the idea doesn´t spread though....if we start seeing Cynops hybrids in a few years i´ll leave everything behind and go live to the mountains...
 
I think that Cc x Co mix is possible, maybe just because in nature they live close to each other (closer than Co to Cp for sure) or even in same habitats? I don't know much about they biogeography and about China geography too, but, could somebody say that T. marmoratus is similiar to T. cristatus? I don't think so, and they crossbreed.
 
They may not look similar but they certainly are. Just because the colors are different it doesn´t mean they are not very closely related. Both are Triturus and both share essential characteristics, like an almost identical courtship behaviour, the famous 50% chromosomal issue, etc...
If you analize the morphology and behaviour of both species (forgetting about colors) in fact of all Triturus, they are all basically the same....
 
And how about differences between Cynops species, what do you think?
 
Whoa everybody, hang on. I misunderstood Jen's post. I thought she meant Cynops orientalis and C. cyanurus had interbred. They haven't. This is C. orientalis v C. pyrrhogaster.

I am going to take my tenner back and go with my previous stance. I actually don't think it's as likely that C. orientalis and C. cyanurus can interbreed. C. pyrrhogaster and C. orientalis are separated by impassable geography (the sea) and so have had no need to evolve a genetic incompatibility. This is not the case for C. cyanurus and C. orientalis. Those two species by necessity would have had to evolve a way of preventing or minimising interbreeding because of their close geography into modern times. This would be an interesting experiment. My money is on no interbreeding between C. orientalis and C. cyanurus.
 
Here in Poland we have Bombina bombina and Bombina variegata firebelly toads. They naturally interbreed in some regions, it occurs also in Lissotriton vulgaris and helveticus/montandoni. They all live in same area (locally, we have no helveticus in my country but in books i have pictures of mixed specimens of helveticus x vulgaris and saw picture of vulgaris x montandoni from garden pool owner from southeast Poland, my friend had also seen second mix by himself.
 
That's another possibility. Interesting experiment for someone to try though. Anyone got any CB orientalis?
 
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