Illness/Sickness: Jaw / mouth problem

Hi everyone,

Mortimer has been doing really well (I thought).....but yesterday he didn't seem interested in food for the first time. I didn't think much of it because he's getting older, so I figured he just didn't need to eat. I tried to feed him again today, and still nothing. I tried to feed him live blackworms from a turkey baster (like always), and he followed the turkey baster with his head as if he was interested...but he didn't snap at it like he usually does.

Yesterday, I also noticed that he was holding his mouth slightly open and it was like he was taking deep breaths (I don't know what he was really doing, but that's what it looked like). He is still doing this. His jaw actually looks slightly swollen. I've noticed that for a couple weeks, but I tried not to worry about it because I thought that that was just the shape of his head as he's gotten older.

I feel that there is definitely something wrong with him. I hesitantly picked him up to see if he would open his mouth if I slightly placed the edge of a cleaned-off debit card in there. Nothing. I didn't want to stress him out more than I already had, so I let him go. (He did not seem to be very happy about me handling him.) He isn't showing other signs of stress that I can see (e.g., hooked tail, curled gills, etc).

The tank is bare-bottomed....and there is nothing that I can think that he could've eaten other than maybe a piece of a live plant..??? The water parameters have been perfect. I just checked the water again: ammonia: 0, nitrite: 0, nitrate: ~30. The water temperature has been a steady 67-68 degrees.

Please let me know if you have any ideas about what might be going on. I really care about this little guy, and I don't want him to be uncomfortable. Thank you in advance.

Also....I don't have a picture of his jaw yet, but I'll take one as soon as he comes out of hiding....

Sharon

Swelling of the jaw can be an early sign of kidney problems.

What's his diet normally like? Have you ever tested the hardness of your water?

Kaysie said:

Swelling of the jaw can be an early sign of kidney problems.

What's his diet normally like? Have you ever tested the hardness of your water?

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He eats live blackworms about every 2-3 days.

I have only tested the water hardness using a litmus test, which I know is not really reliable. It showed that the water is definitely hard. I bought a liquid pH test, but the range of the test is from 6.0-7.6 (and the pet store owner said that the water in Pullman is about 8.2-8.4). I bought the test anyway, and yes...the water is showing to be the most alkaline color. I asked the pet store owner if he thought that I should try to lower the pH, and he said no. He said that shifts in pH would be more stressful than a relatively high but constant pH.

I just did a tiny bit of digging and found some water quality reports for the town, which are actually a bit scary (as I'm sitting here drinking tap water....). In 2010, it looks like the city was in violation of code due to Iron and Turbidity (which I don't know anything about; see attached).

Mortimer is still refusing food. My two sub-adults (in a separate tank) seem to be doing fine....but I'm worried about them, too, if my water could be harming them. I think I'm going to start drinking bottled water now.....

And thank you for responding. Please let me know if you have any suggestions. Do you know if anything can be done for kidney problems (other than removing the cause of the problem)? The WSU veterinary school is very good (and close), but the last time I spoke to them, they were very hesitant to see an axolotl.

Sharon

Just got off the phone with the vet school here. They can see him tomorrow if he does not improve....I just have meetings that will be hard to get out of. :/

They said to email the exotic vet today and see what she says. I'll let you guys know as things progress. Mortimer really doesn't look well. I'm not sure how to describe it, but he looks pretty uncomfortable. (Maybe I will take him in and they will say he looks great and I just worry too much....haha....that would be nice.)

I know the PH can be a from 6.5 to 8.0 but ideal is 7.4 to 7.6 i could be wrong. I dont know if that will have any cause as your PH is over 8. But im sure someone else can help you more than i can as im still knew to this. Hope your axolotl is ok

Mortimer said:

Just got off the phone with the vet school here. They can see him tomorrow if he does not improve....I just have meetings that will be hard to get out of. :/

They said to email the exotic vet today and see what she says. I'll let you guys know as things progress. Mortimer really doesn't look well. I'm not sure how to describe it, but he looks pretty uncomfortable. (Maybe I will take him in and they will say he looks great and I just worry too much....haha....that would be nice.)

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I hope the vets can help. Mine wasn't himself the other day and my flatmate thought I was being weird by worrying about him. But you know your own axolotl and you know when something isn't right.

I had to leave him at the vet hospital. They're supposed to call me today and give me an idea of what might be going on (and how much this will cost).

The vet student said that his jaw is definitely swollen.

Fingers are crossed that whatever he has going on is treatable.

Sorry I haven't written anything to update you since I left Mortimer at the vet. The whole situation has been kind of frustrating (and continues to be ).....so I would really appreciate any advice that you may have.

I picked Mortimer up from the vet hospital the same day that I left him there. When I had left him with the vet student after she triaged about my concerns, she agreed that his jaw definitely looked abnormal/swollen. The vet called me later, however, and this is how the conversation went:

Vet: So....I don't think you're CRAZY (!!), BUT I don't see anything wrong with Mortimer. If his jaw is swollen, it is swollen uniformly, so that indicates to me that he doesn't have an infection. I looked inside his mouth, and it looked fine.

Me: (I was just thinking...wow...I can't believe that's how she started.....haha.) Okay. That's such a relief! .......what about his refusing to eat? Or his mouth drooping open all the time?

Vet: I've never seen an axolotl eat at my office. They're usually too stressed.

Me: But he hasn't eaten in almost a week. That is not typical for him.

Vet: He's fine.

Me: Okay.....I hate to keep asking you questions....and I'm glad you think he's okay....but what about his mouth being open all the time? And he often looks like he's gasping.

Vet: Well.....he could be showing early signs of MBD, but there's no way to know. I'm pretty sure that he is doing just fine--except for his damaged gills on one side. By the way, he is one of the most massive axolotls I have ever seen.

Me: Really? Is he overweight?

Vet: No.

Me: Okay. Thank you for your help.
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So that was a while ago. Since I've had Mortimer back at home, he seems to be deteriorating. He won't eat.....he very rarely tries to, and then most of his food comes back out. He's losing weight quickly, his mouth is still gaping open, he's pretty listless, and he just doesn't look right. (I have two other axolotls in a different tank, and they are doing just fine.....so I'm not pathologizing all of my axies, at least.)

Does anyone have any idea what could be going on? I feel badly that I can't seem to do anything to help him. His water parameters are fine (0ppm/0ppm/20ppm), I've been keeping his water a little cooler (63-67F), and I continue to try to feed him live black worms.

Thanks for reading and any input you may have..... I will try to get some pictures of him on here soon.

Sharon

If blackworms are the staple then maybe MBD is not a bad diagnosis.

I agree. Blackworms aren't that great a source of calcium. Try to gutload some crickets with vitamin powder and see if he'll try that. I usually pull the back legs off first.

I've switched to earthworms. (Finally forced myself to get over it...it's still hard for me to cut them.). It took a while for him to seem interested in them (about a week), but now he has been eating again. His mouth is gaping open even more than before, but other than that, he seems to be doing better.

Do you know if MBD is reversible? Or if the symptoms can be attenuated?

Thanks for your feedback.

S

I saw these the other day and thought of Mortimer.

Calci-worms. And apparently they're already popular across the pond? I don't know whether there's anything that would make them inappropriate for Axolotls, but if they're fine, you could probably get hold of some of them.

Maybe someone else knows more about them, and whether it's okay to give them to 'Lotls.

Might be easier than gutloading crickets? (I don't like the idea of pulling their back legs off. I'm sure the earthworms are up-in-arms - ha! - about speciesism.)

I don't know about the calci-worms, but I feed my leopard gecko gut loaded crickets. Flukers makes a good gut loader that you can get at your local petsmart or petco called Fluker's high calcium cricket diet. It's less than $4.00 per jar.

just saw this post to get some details on my axie and she seems to have the same problem..
i posted some pictures to help outin this reply to the thread

Any new ideas?? We are sadly having a similar problem but his diet has always been night crawlers

I have the same thing with one of my axolotls. I got him ages ago from a very bad pet store, at the time I didn't think of the fact that my buying him would probably encourage them to get more of them to sell... my bad.

He was always a fussy eater, and at the beginning he didn't want to eat anything. Until I fed him earthworms. But when I ran out in winter time and couldn't feed him anymore earthworms, I switched to pellets (in that case, make sure you get the right kind with the correct amount of fat and proteins for axies). He had difficulties changing his diet, and was fussy again.

Then this spring, when I could get earthworms again, he didn't want them, he wanted the pellets. It took some nudging and two weeks of him not eating, but eventually he ate them. Now he loves them again.

He has the same thing as these axolotls do; a constantly open mouth and a slightly curved spine. I looked it up: MBD....

He is perfectly healthy now and actually begs for food all the time. He munches up his worms faster than the others do. He is also the largest of them all.
Sadly; his curved spine and open mouth remain. The effects of MBD are irreversible. If you notice your pet has this problem; only a good balanced diet can make your pet happy and healthy. But all caused deformities will remain.

Also; if you've always fed your axolotl the good stuff but has always had an open mouth (and maybe also a curved spine), think of where you got your pet from. The malnourishment could have come from there. It's what happened with my axolotl.

Rhino said:

just saw this post to get some details on my axie and she seems to have the same problem..
i posted some pictures to help outin this reply to the thread

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I am just seeing your post--2 months later. :/

How's she doing? She looks similar to Mortimer, only her mouth is open a bit more.

Mortimer seems to be doing well now, but his mouth is always open. I've been feeding him night crawlers, but I'm afraid the damage to his jaw / bones has already been done.

RupertxGiles said:

Any new ideas?? We are sadly having a similar problem but his diet has always been night crawlers

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Hi Rupert,

I'm just seeing your post. How's your little guy doing?

Sharon