Phase/hybrid-Let´s think a little

I really didn't mean the greek pedophilia thing as "we should do whatever, cuz greeks did it", I meant is a dismissal of evil, in nature there is no evil, just actions which damage the species and actions that further the species, the same applies to humans, there are individuals that mess everything up and there are individuals which do great things for all of mankind.

Pedophelia is not something I'm fond of, nor is it something that should be legalized, it was just an example to demonstrate that evil isn't an absolute descriptive word, evil changes upon the generation and culture, just as morals do.

And yes, nature is random in a sense, but we still got the luck of the draw, and we used it, lesser creatures (critters that lack a higher functioning brain) would do the same with even less care taken to preserve the natural world, do you think if bears could build weapons they wouldn't use them? if pelicans could build bombs they would disarm them? if dolphins could build waterways they wouldn't utilize this to dominate the planet?

Your point about the greeks only proofs that such actions are based on culture and not on nature.
Culture is completely man-made.

How exactly is destroying the earth bettering our species? We are dully working towards our own extinction...how dumb is that?
That goes directly against nature...
It all responds to cultural reasons, particularly occidental culture. It has very, very little to do with nature, because we have detached ourselves from nature more than any other previous culture.

If bears could make weapons, they would also be capable of rational thinking and therefoe would be subject to the same question as we are: should we do this?
Doing something just because you can is extremely stupid. We could indeed destroy the earth today, obliterate it completely...now, would that be good? Certainly not...
Jclee is spot on, we have the hability to consider consequences, and we MUST do so. If we don´t we are negating our very nature which is that of an intelligent, rational thinker.

Evil doesn´t exist in nature (broadly speaking), i agree. But it does exist in humankind. We are presented with options and some of us choose, consciously to do something that is moraly wrong, cruel, or down right evil. We are very much capable of evilness and it has nothing to do with nature. For example, if you have a bunny in your hands and you have the option either to pet it or to kill it, and you choose to kill it, that´s not nature telling you to do so, it´s your choice. And you should pay for the consequences of your choices, by the way...
Anyway, please, as interesting as this discussion is, it bares little direct relevance to the topic in hand. Perhaps we should keep the thread on topic.

I must agree, we should get this back on topic ASAP, and this shall be my final response in concern to the human element of this topic.

Well no, actually, mankind hasn't been very eco-concious about anything for the last decade or so, we are just now starting to take notice as a whole, the simple fact is that if we had just kept doing things like they did in the 60's or 70's the world would be burning right now, nature doesn't lean in any given direction, either you grow or you die, simple as that.

That makes an aweful lot of assumptions, for one it assumes bears could only build weapons if they were aware of consequences, it also assumes bears would even care, there is no data so far that dictates a creature must care about consequences, for all we know a bear with a nuke who knew what the nuke was capable of would detonate it anyway (just for the sheer thrill of destroying thousands of acres of life), there is no reason why anything with intelligence must care.

Mankind is not a rational and intelligent thinker, for all the countless decades we have persisted on this planet it has been shown time and time again that man will kill before he surrenders, a truly intelligent species would find alternatives (what most of us do nowadays), a truly rational creature would see that a superior being is better and surrender, a truly intelligent and rational creature would leave this planet.

No, evil doesn't exist, it never has, it is a blanket term reffering to negative actions, if I was starving and in the wilderness I would certainly kill that rabbit just as I would kill any weaker prey items so that I may survive (we all would), assuming I was in a city and I killed that rabbit for nothing but the thrill of it then others would see me as evil, this can't be applied to any 'natural' creature, as I previously stated dolphins will massacre others and they do so for fun, so then dolphins are morally evil? yeah, if I can be classified as evil for killing 1 bunny rabbit then a dolphin can be classified as evil for killing 20 porpoises, morals are defined by cultures and whatever that culture dictates is what is followed. By your own logic "punish the killers" we should arrest and maybe even kill hundreds of dolphins, as dolphins quite clearly murder the porpoises that means they are all evil, scummy, murderers, no different from any other mass-murderer (excpet dolphins are better at it then we are).

the lovey-dovey, peace is the only way, good will prevail, logic is ridiculous, put simply if we want to help the planet then we should leave, there is no way this planet will ever support our increasing populations and increasing developement and we will never stop growing, this is our natural mandate (grow or die) so we either continue to grow until the planet crashes or we grow outward into space and beyond.

Now back on topic, How does everyone feel about 'certain' hybrids? ie, only hybridize the species that can handle it.

If we are not rational thinkers then how come we are using the internet to discuss this? It requires quite a lot of intelligent and rational deliberation to come up with such a complex thing. Hell, this is discussion!!! If that´s not proof that rational thinking is what we do, then i´m a purple orange.
Saying we are intelligent is not saying we are perfect. We are terribly and dramatically flawed, both because of biological limitations, and particularly because of culture.
To blindly continue to make the same mistakes over and over is what is ridiculous. Leave the planet? We should be mending our mistakes not thinking that´s it all already lost. And trust me, that´s a tough thing for me, i´m a catastrophist.
To say that wanting to survive as a species and wanting our habitat (the world) not to be utterly destroyed is lovey-dovey hippie stuff is...well....there are no words. I don´t want the world to implode in an apocalyptic mess, so i suposse i must be weak.

Do you have proof that dolphins kill for pleassure? Careful...just because we can´t find a reason for the killing it doesn´t mean there isn´t one, other than just because that´s what they fancy.


There is indeed a very HUGE reason why anything intelligent should care. Survival.

I´m sorry to keep the off-topic discussion (which won´t end cause now you´ll feel the need to answer to this, and i´ll answer again, etc etc......sigh), but i can´t help but think you are seeing the world as if it was a sci-fi movie. Less "we must conquer" and more thinking about what must be done to ensure our survival, our descendants survival and that of all the beings in this world which have just as much right to exist as we do. We left the biblical times far behind, the concept that the world is here for us to explote and dominate is archaic and stupid and if we continue that way (which by the way is a completely cultural concept and is not a biological imperative - the biological imperative is to survive, not to obliterate the world and die with it-) we are doomed. I would also like to say that it´s a very occidental thing. There have been, and there still are examples of cultures that lived in a much higher degree of harmony with the environment, respecting it based on the very intelligent and yet basic principle that we depend entirely on our ecosystem, just like any other creature. It´s occidentals that have corrupted everything with our cultural notions. It´s certainly not a human imperative (to extrapolate occidental culture to the rest of the human race is also a very occidental thing to do...¬¬).

I´m confused as to what you mean about hybridizing species "that can handle it"...what does that imply?
The problem with hybrids has been already discussed, it´s that they are being bred irresponsibly and being passed as pure animals. Were we to do things right and responsibly and keep control and not lie to each other, hybrids wouldn´t be a problem at all.

I'm not going to reply to your ramblings, for 1 reason, our populations continue to increase and no matter what alternative fuel or organic lifestyle the entire human race could adapt to there is limited space and limited resources, if every couple in the world was to only have 1 child each (unlikely) we would still see an exponential growth rate, and we can only house and feed so many humans on this planet.

back on topic, I meant animals which show little to no 'natural' decline, ie there is large amount of them in the wild and there are lots of them in the hobby, such as Tiger Sals or Chinese Firebellies, this would ensure that no matter how many people cross-breed them there would still be natural stock, though with the Firebellies we would have to worry about collecting from the wild vs. CB, this is what I meant by "that can handle it", species which won't show dramatic and serious loses because of the irresponsible breeders/hobbiests.

If every couple had one child...there would not be an exponential growth....there would be a decline...that´s basic math.... Ô_o

Mmmm...i agree there is a lesser potential of damage when the species is very common in captivity, but once again axolotls set an example. They are very common indeed and yet one single hibridation event has affected the vast majority of the captive stock. The reason of course has been irresponsible and uncontrolled breeding.

woopsie, yeah, my mistake, and a big one at that...

well yeah, but in the wild axies might as well be extinct, there is no way for the hobby to 'euthanize (in the immortal words of Michael Scott)' the captive stock, we can't harvest a wild specimen to reintroduce a pure strain, if what has happened to axies happened to tigers we could simply bring in some of the wild ones and we then have pure strains back in the hobby, that's more or less what I meant, ie they are popular in the hobby and NOT about to die-off in the wild.