Illness/Sickness: Help

axolotljmh · Nov 24, 2013

I have bought two axolotls 3 days ago and one of them has a large swollen belly, I noticed some rather large faeces in the tank I washed them and it turned out to be pieces of gravel from the tank in the pet shop. Her belly still looks large, I would really appreciate if you could please get back to me with some advice on how I could resurrect this problem and bring my axolotl back to a healthy state.

axolotljmh · Nov 24, 2013

also would feeding her/him help flush out the system any quicker??

xxianxx · Nov 24, 2013

The axoltol is excreting consumed gravel, the problem which may occur is the gravel becomes wedged in the gut (impacted), if this occurs you may find that it stops eating. If this happens you can follow the standard advice of fridging it, info on this can be found on this site. Keep feeding the axolotl , if it is eating ok there may not be a problem and you will find gravel in the tank for weeks as it often takes a while to pass..

layna · Nov 25, 2013

Try to feed him a few waxworms to 'lube' up his gut to help pass the gravel easier.
Axies should be fed on earthworms anyway and they can also help make digestion easier

axolotljmh · Nov 25, 2013

Thank you for the advice, her appetite is very good, she rarely turns away food so I guess that's a good sign according to what your saying. Yes I feed her earth worms and bloodworms but I will try wax worms to lubricate her stomach!

xxianxx · Nov 25, 2013

layna said:
Try to feed him a few waxworms to 'lube' up his gut to help pass the gravel easier.

I am constantly seeing wax worms recommended to help "lube" up their gut to help pass gravel, what evidence can you provide to support this ? I have looked for any studies concerning this and have drawn a blank.

snuggly time · Nov 25, 2013

xxianxx said:
I am constantly seeing wax worms recommended to help "lube" up their gut to help pass gravel, what evidence can you provide to support this ? I have looked for any studies concerning this and have drawn a blank.

Probably just because they're soft. But then earthworms are too. :grin:

layna · Nov 26, 2013

From what ive read, they are very soft and fatty so provide a coating to whatever needs to pass, also if theyre not eating much because of whatever the problem, it can keep them from slowly wasting away.
I dont mean to change their diet (which should be earthworms anyway) completely to waxworms, just try adding a couple a week to their diet until the problem subsides.

xxianxx · Nov 26, 2013

layna said:
From what ive read,

By this you mean advice given in this section of the forum without any proof ?

Amy82 · Nov 26, 2013

Wax worms have a higher fat content. Lipids are absorbed after proteins and carbohydrates but generally before water in the digestive system, therefore they can aid in helping to soften stool.

Sources:
Caudata Culture Articles - Nutritional Values
Grubco :: Nutritional Information

For an even more comprehensive breakdown of nutrient content including specific amino acids, trace minerals, and lipids read this study. http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1512/249.full.pdf

xxianxx · Nov 26, 2013

Amy82 said:
Wax worms have a higher fat content. Lipids are absorbed after proteins and carbohydrates but generally before water in the digestive system, therefore they can aid in helping to soften stool.

Sources:
Caudata Culture Articles - Nutritional Values
Grubco :: Nutritional Information

For an even more comprehensive breakdown of nutrient content including specific amino acids, trace minerals, and lipids read this study. http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/270/1512/249.full.pdf

And the proven effect of this on helping to pass gravel from an axolotls gut is.... ?

xxianxx · Nov 26, 2013

axolotljmh said:
I have bought two axolotls 3 days ago and one of them has a large swollen belly, I noticed some rather large faeces in the tank I washed them and it turned out to be pieces of gravel from the tank in the pet shop. Her belly still looks large, I would really appreciate if you could please get back to me with some advice on how I could resurrect this problem and bring my axolotl back to a healthy state.

Forgot to ask for a pic, it would be usefull to see how fat it is

layna · Nov 27, 2013

Taken from here

Caudata Culture Articles - Nutritional Values

Waxworms being one of the highest in fat content.

I dont know why you feel the need to intently question me, if im giving bad advice, then yes, correct me in a polite manner, but i cant see what is so terrible in suggesting to feed a couple, when people give waxworms as a treat anyway.

I appreciate you wanting evidence ect but i wouldnt give advice if i felt it wasnt viable or beneficial.

xxianxx · Nov 27, 2013

layna said:
Taken from here Caudata Culture Articles - Nutritional Values

Waxworms being one of the highest in fat content.

I dont know why you feel the need to intently question me, if im giving bad advice, then yes, correct me in a polite manner, but i cant see what is so terrible in suggesting to feed a couple, when people give waxworms as a treat anyway.

I appreciate you wanting evidence ect but i wouldnt give advice if i felt it wasnt viable or beneficial.

Your taking offense because I asked you what evidence there is to back up some of the advice you have given ? What you guys have is a hypothesis but no actual proof. I actually went to the trouble to find some evidence but found nothing , which is why I asked in this thread. A few waxworms given to an axolotl who has some gravel in its gut are unlikely to cause any problems but you (and others) are specifically recomending them as a cure/treatment when there is no proven benefit, this info is being treated as fact when it is opinion regurgitated as fact . Also where have I been impolite ? You appear to be suggesting that you would prefer to be corrected in a "polite manner", I have not tried to "correct" you, I asked for evidence.

layna · Nov 27, 2013

I stated "if im giving bad advice, then yes, correct me in a polite manner" not that you actually were trying to correct me, or in fact were being impolite

Meh, im not advertising it as a miracle treatment, just that it may help.

VegasMudd · Nov 27, 2013

I do not have an axie but have a few species of frogs and notice that stool is softer (and sometimes comes out more quickly!) when I feed them a wax worms as treats. There maybe no scientific studies on it to prove but has been widely witnessed to offer some help.

From working in a vet hospital I have heard the vet tell owners of dogs that may have ingested something but cannot afford x-rays/surgery or whatever the case may be to feed canned foods or those higher in fat content as it kind of upsets the stomach being so rich and can cause loose stools that may help push objects out that will fit. Yes there have been cases where an item was too big to pass and surgery was later required but then again it would not have passed naturally so trying to speed up the process did little in harm.

Amy82 · Nov 27, 2013

There's nothing wrong with wanting evidence to support a hypothesis, evidence can be found to support the hypothesis by researching how lipids act in the digestive track.

Still with no studies or experiments to prove it, it remains a hypothesis supported by researched facts on lipid responses.

This would be an interesting thesis for anyone studying digestion in Axolotls.

xxianxx · Nov 27, 2013

Amy82 said:
Still with no studies or experiments to prove it, it remains a hypothesis supported by researched facts on lipid responses.

So its still a hypothesis then and shouldn't be recommended as a proven treatment/cure.

Amy82 · Nov 27, 2013

Since giving occasional wax worms can't harm the animal there's no since not to try it.

Similarly. There's no scientific evidence to prove sugar causes hyperactivity, yet if you understand basic absorption and metabolism it's a reasonable hypothesis and reduction in refined sugars in a mammalian diet causes no harm.

The only reason I can think of to avoid it would be stubbornness. Do you have a better one?

I agree it shouldn't be touted as a cure, but as a course of possible treatment.

xxianxx · Nov 28, 2013

Amy82 said:
Since giving occasional wax worms can't harm the animal there's no since not to try it.

The only reason I can think of to avoid it would be stubbornness. Do you have a better one?

I agree it shouldn't be touted as a cure, but as a course of possible treatment.

Your missing the point. Waxworms HAVE been touted as a proven treatment for ingested gravel and impaction. It was suggested as a possible treatment and has now assumed the status as a recognized treatment without a shred of evidence that it works. Once information is repeated enough times without being challenged it becomes fact. As for "better" treatments, ingested gravel requires no treatment as it can work its way out over a period of time, if he axolotl becomes impacted a proven treatment is fridging. By pushing the waxworm miracle cure some people may choose not to fridge their pet and rely on waxworms, which may or may not work . As for "stubbornness", I think to continually support a course of action with no proven benefit at the possible expense of somebody's pet is both stubborn and irresponsible. People come to this forum for help, they believe what they read.

Illness/Sickness: Help

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