Identifying Cynops species

I noticed that I have two kinds of Cynops newts on my terrarium. I think they are C. orientalis and C. pyrrhogaster, but I'm not sure. You can find some images and more information about my problem at www.ekkuli.net/herp/cynops. So if someone could help me to identify my animals, it would be nice.

Do you have an image of their faces, i.e. the front of their heads or at least the side?

It looks to me like the shiny one might not be a Cynops but a Pachytriton, but I'm not sure from your pics.

Have you checked out the article "What kind of fire-belly is it?" on Caudate Central?

I posted two new images to www.ekkuli.net/herp/cynops. On the image 5 you can see the front view of the face of the shinyer animal. And on image 6 from the side.

I have read the article, and don't think this is Pachytriton. On the images animal looks shinyer/slimyer than it really is. On the images 2 and 5 you van also see tip of its tail, and it is not so round and wide than I think it should be for Pachytriton.

Hi Joonas,

I guess Swan wanted to see the side of the head of the smaller individual.

The larger one should be orientalis; it's not a Pachytriton. What's its size?

The smaller one is more difficult: I don't think that it has anything to do with the pyrrhogaster group and I would tend to think it may me a member of the wolterstorffi group. Not all of them have the characteristic red blotch but I've only come across imports of cyanurus (which always(?) seems to have this blotch). BTW, is it currently in its terrestial phase?

Best wishes,
kai

They both look like orientalis to me.

The larger one is something like 11 cm in total. Slightly big for orientalis, or maybe not?

Why would you Kai think it wouldn't by pyrrhogaster? On the images I can find on the internet wolterstorffi has red markings on its back (like http://elib.cs.berkeley.edu/cgi/img_query?enlarge=1111+1111+1111+0547). This animal of mine has nothing like that.

I actually have also a third newt, that is something "between" these two. It is more like the smaller one, but skin texture in not as rough, and back is slightly flatter. It also have small red spot on its side, one over both fore legs. I must later post also some images of it to my site.

This is getting interesting... I have asked this also earlier, but is there some litterature I should study to learn more about these species, and especially to learn to identify them. To my I they all look so similar

BTW: All three of them are living in the water all the time.

C. wolterstorfii has been considered extinct since the early 80s I believe. I think you can rest easy knowing it's NOT C. wolterstorffi

11cm is not too large, I have a large female orientalis that size. A few of my orientalis have the red spots on the base of the forelimbs and spots over the hips and this is not uncommon for orientalis to have some red spots. The eggs she has laid has produced a few juveniles with broken stripes of red spots along the sides and a discontinuous dorsal stripe.

I think all 3 of your newts look so similar because they are all C. orientalis. They will not all look "exactly" alike, all you're seeing is variation within orientalis.

One more question popped up in my mind: are Cynops species able to crossbreed with each others?

In nature they do live in separate areas, but in captivity, maybe...?

Well, I suggested to check out the wolterstorffi species group (i.e. cyanurus & Co.) - it's not wolterstorffi (sorrily).

Nate has more experience with orientalis and I'd go with his opinion (the belly pattern is very similar, too). I've never seen an orientalis with such a somewhat coarser skin but Cynops do seem to vary quite a bit (and I haven't seen that many orientalis either)...

I wouldn't be surprised if some crosses were possible in captivity, especially within the species groups. I can't recall any interspecific hybrids off-hand. It's not a good idea to house several species/populations together anyway.

Best wishes,
kai

OK. It seems that my animals are orientalis.

I still would like to recognize when I see a pyrrhogaster. Therefore I collected some distinguishing features between pyrrhogaster and orientalis.

These include:
- nasal process: short or long
- skin texture: rough or smooth
- vertebral ridge: arched or flattened
- parotid gland: enlarged or not
- size: bigger, >10 cm or smaller, <10 cm
- tip of the tail: tapered or blunt
- patterns of the belly: speckled or blotchy

Are these all, at least to some extent, valid features to look at? And is there some other things I should take into consideration then trying to identify a cynops newt?