The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store

Notices

Fire Salamanders (Salamandra) The first salamanders described, this diverse genus of species and subspecies can be found throughout Europe and the Near-East. They are the animals that first come to mind when most people hear the word "salamander".

Reply

 

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20th November 2005   #1
rubén
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Some photographs of a "classical", the Tendi valley from the mountains in Asturias

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.



  Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2005   #2
leonardo
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

wonderful place ruben, and beautiful photos!
but isn't the first specimen (and the last one) a bit on the skinny side?is this normal in the wild?

bye
Leo



  Reply With Quote
Old 20th November 2005   #3
rubén
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Leo

It was surprising for me too, seeing those skinny salamanders. The photos were taken at the end of the ( hard ) summer... and the animals were males, this is all I can say Click the image to open in full size.



  Reply With Quote
Old 1st December 2005   #4
frank
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Ruben,

I have the same observation. I visited this region four times (april, july) and the number of skinny looking adults was always remarkable.



  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd December 2005   #5
rubén
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Frank

yes, would be interesting inquire why, don't you think? personally I cannot find a clear reason: It's not breeding time, and salamanders are completely active. Then, there is no drought period; the weather is warm and rainy the whole year ( 1.400-1.700 mm./year )

I think is interesting because in bernardezi populations, close to those ones, males were always pretty fat individuals...



  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2006   #6
miguel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Rubén,
I'm new in the forum.
I agree, they are wonderful animals (and photos). But, I've got a question, please: Which is the current validity of Salamandra salamandra alfredschmidti as a true subspecies and where is it published?
I've got the Lissamphibia Volume of Fauna Iberica and this name is not recognized.

Thank you



  Reply With Quote
Old 17th January 2006   #7
stefan
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Miguel,
untill now alfredschmidti is not a valid subspecies of Salamandra salamandra!

Herr Dr. Koehler and Sebastian Steinfartz described the tendi- and la marea bernardezis as alfredschmidti but as their paper is not published yet they are still common bernardezis.

As far as i know they are going to publish their paper in february.

With kind regards, Stefan



  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2006   #8
sergé
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

You are all right. The name has already slipped out, which is odd and not very decent according to the taxonomical guidelines. And even then we still have to wait if their proposal is well supported with evidence! But both being experienced scientists they will probably have done enough research to support it.



  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2006   #9
miguel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Thank you for your answers.
I'll wait eager for the paper Click the image to open in full size.



  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2006   #10
rubén
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Miguel ( and welcome )

this thread of alfredschmidti seems to be clarified finally: Koehler and Steinfartz were using this name the last year, but then... in Spain you can't find herpetologist that support this, as Sergé had said. Íńigo Martínez Solano, Mario García Paris, Jaime Bosch and Miguel Lizana doesn't use it.

Miguel Lizana told me that many other populations of bernardezi have similar mitochondrial profiles than "alfredschmidti", and, of course, colour pattern is not a valid argument to become a new subspecies.

Anyway, if you are interested, you can take a look here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/Taxonomy...e=1&unlock

Sometimes the enthusiasm of a new discovered subspecies can be too seductive...

(Message edited by Iberian_guest on January 18, 2006)



  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2006   #11
william
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

talking of doubtful subspecies status, what do you people know of werneri, beschkovi and hispanica?



  Reply With Quote
Old 18th January 2006   #12
miguel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Muchas gracias Rubén,

I copied the "alfredschmidti" sequence from genbank and after I did a blast search. Sequences from alfredschmidti and bernardezi are both very similar, but I don't know how much variable this molecular marker is (actually, I work with plants). I just printed the Koehler and Steinfartz Molecular Ecology 9 paper, I'll try to read it this evening and compare with that of Mario García et al. about viviparity.
Serge's Pleurodeles paper (that I casually printed this morning) is left for tomorrow ;)



  Reply With Quote
Old 19th January 2006   #13
sergé
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

There is still a lot of nice work to be done on northern spanish salamandra populations.

And personally I really don't like a german name for a spanish subspecies of salamandra, but I look forward to see the explanation Steinfartz and Köhler give.

Hispanica and beschovi are doubtful subspecies, werneri seems to be valid. But there is too little research done on the Balkans. But as seen in Steinfartz et al 2000 paper genetically even morphological distinct gallaica, terrestris, fastuosa and salamandra are not easy to separate.



  Reply With Quote
Old 24th March 2006   #14
kamil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hello all,

the explanation is:

"Derivatio nominis: Die wissenschaftliche Laufbahn beider Autoren wurde maßgeblich durch die Deutsche Gesellschafte für Herpetologie und Terrarienkunde (DGHT), die in einer einmaligen Weise Amateur- und professionelle Herpetologen verschiedener Generationen zusammenführt, initiiert und beeinflusst. Das Ehrenmitglied Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt am Main, verkörpert diese Tradition der DGHT auf eine besondere Weise. Es ist uns deshalb eine Freude, diese Unterart des Feuersalamanders unserem Freund und dem Ehrenmitglied der DGHT Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt am Main, in Anerkennung seiner Verdienste um die Förderung der Herpetologie und Terrarienkunde in Deutschland zu widmen."

My translation-try:

Derivatio nominis: The academic career of both authors was influenced applicable and initiated by the German....??? (DGHT), which connects amateur- and professional herpetologists of different generations in a unique kind. The honorary member Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt / Main, embodies this tradition of the DGHT in a special way. Because of that it is a pleasure for us to dedicate this subspecies of the fire-salamander to our Friend and the honorary member of the DGHT Alfred A. Schmidt, Frankfurt / Main, in approval of his sterling service for the encouragement of herpetology and "terrarienkunde" (terraria-lore???) in Germany.


I hope you can understand this! Click the image to open in full size.



  Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2006   #15
sergé
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

DGHT = German Herptological and Herpetoculture Society (terrarienkunde = herpetoculture or the keeping of reptiles and amphibians in terrarium)

Still, I was rather disappointed by the description as it is rather 'thin' , with little self research (many data refer to data collected Frank Pasmans and Heinz Keller) and little context about the position of bernardezi/alfredschmidti in the surrounding Salamandra's.



  Reply With Quote
Old 27th March 2006   #16
francesco
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

yeah I agree with you Serge and there's little on the mitochondrial DNA analysis as well...



  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2006   #17
miguel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi, could you tell me where the description has been published? Thanks



  Reply With Quote
Old 31st March 2006   #18
kamil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

"Gunther Köhler & Sebastian Steinfartz (2006): A new subspecies of the fire salamander, Salmandra salamandra (Linneaus, 1758) from the Tendi valley, Asturias, Spain. - Salamandra, Rheinbach, 42(1): 13-20"

Best Greetings,

Kamil



  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2006   #19
miguel
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Thank you very much, kamil. I'll try to find it, although my university has not the review.



  Reply With Quote
Old 28th April 2006   #20
kamil
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Gallery Images:
Comments:
Default

Hi Miguel,

wrote you just an e-mail about that...

Best Greetings,

Kamil



  Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
alfredschmidti, salamandra


(View-All Members who have read this thread since 10th November 2019, 18:29 (Set) (Clear)

There are no names to display.
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Herping Central France – Observations of Salamandra salamandra terrestris deposition sites. (Warning very pic heavy!) Mark Field Herping Accounts 39 6th March 2019 14:36
Captive Bred Salamandra salamandra gallaica Barry FS: USA 1 19th May 2009 23:45
New subspecies S.salamandra alfredschmidti (former Tendi valley) uwe General Discussion & News from Members 14 28th February 2006 15:49
New records of Salamandra salamandra in Latium (Central Italy) mike Fire Salamanders (Salamandra) 10 5th January 2004 14:54
Salamandra salamandra subspp. breeding question ray Fire Salamanders (Salamandra) 1 27th November 2003 08:34


All times are GMT. The time now is 03:16.