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Old 9th August 2006   #1
dane
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It really bothers me to see people selling loads of frogs or salamanders that were wild caught, I mean what a pathetic way of making a couple bucks. Every time I see "wild caught" I get mad thinking how many offspring these animals could have created in the years to come

I mean I dont mind if someone collects one or two to keep for themselfs but collecting bucket loads and selling them for five dollars just isn't right

(Message edited by Dane_Zu on August 09, 2006)



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Old 9th August 2006   #2
ian
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That and destruction of habitat, you can't watch a wildlife documentary these days where the last ten mins aren't taken up by the effect us humans are having on the planet.



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Old 9th August 2006   #3
joseph
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Worse yet is when they break laws or claim they are CB.

Their are a few natives I'd like to keep but its hard to find a source other than someone collecting hundreds and selling them for cheap to make a quick buck. Apparently in a few areas it is legal but I'm not sure if it is enviromentally sound.


Also to any snake people, is their any justification for "feeder toads?" I hear some species have a hard time converting over to mice and you might need to feed them frogs/toads. I even heard someone say they thought it was unethical to switch them.



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Old 15th August 2006   #4
john
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Never go into a bait store in the south....



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Old 15th August 2006   #5
paris
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...(playing devil's advocate here)

dane,
it seems it is the moral issue you are taking issue with. unfortunately for your POV, it is legal in many states-all you need is a permit. in colorado, where i live, the cost is 500$ for a license to collect and re-sell. this is a wildlife management issue and i will draw slight parallel with hunting.

dont forget 'waterdogs' are also farmed in large ponds to supply the bait trade. i have issue with this and think it should be banned, but not for the same reason as you. waterdogs are a vector for rana virus and are also dumped by fishermen into local ponds when they dont want them any more.

i agree with john duktig about southern bait store too - what is worse is the method of collection used by unscrupulous suppliers of 'spring lizards'. scientists use the electro shock technique method to collect mass numbers in an area for their purposes, bait collectors use bleach to shock the animals out (much like the people who use cyanide to collect salt water fish). i am unsure if this may be legal somewhere but the method is immoral in my opinion.

i will also mention that it is illegal for any of us to own an endangered specimen, yet it is legal for people with permits to kill them accidentally. much like 'collateral damage' during war time-this process is known as 'legal take'.

my point here is though you may be opposed to WC specimens for sale, it is still perfectly legal. now there will be some who sell them on the sly w/o permits or in an area where it isnt legal and this IS illegal. but the decision to allow them to be sold is a management issue, as well as a political one. since there are laws that allow for the sale of certain species then the wildlife managers of that area deem the selected species are stable enough to support this process.

in my state the DOW actually will go into ponds and remove (destroy) tiger salamanders to help protect endangered fish.

another issue you havent mentioned is the release (aka 'setting free') of unwanted pets. my sister is one of these people. it is illegal and immoral. this method is employed by many as it makes them feel good about disposing of their unwanted pets. for my sister it was gold fish in a local pond, others will release unwanted turtles that outgrow their tanks and pet appeal. my sister will deny it is immoral to release a non native pest specie to out compete native specimens, or be a vector for disease to the natives. this process IS illegal though but has far less of a moral impact on the general public that the issue you brought up.

my point here is if people have issues with commercial sales of WC animals and it is legal, then it seems the best way to promote your cause is to take the issue up with local officials and see if you can make an impact on the legality of the practice. there are people far more eloquent who know more about the subject than i out there you can talk to, try your local DOW or DNR for a start.


ian-out here in the west the tiger salamanders range and population has actually increased due to the impact of man. cattle ponds were the tool. now though that more ranchers are going broke and selling their land for higher profits to developers the numbers are sure to decrease. habitat fragmentation and roads will speed up this process.

jospeh-it is because of the cost of the permits to legally sell them that you have such bulk suppliers-they have to offset the cost of the permits. carolina biological works this way.



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