The longest running Amphibian Community on the Internet.

Tags Register FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Caudata.org Store

Notices

Axolotl General Discussion Open axolotl forum: if it doesn't fit in the sub-topics then post it here.

Reply

 

Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 25th November 2015   #1
Chris
(AxolotlChris)
Prolific Member
 
AxolotlChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 1,073
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: AxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and information
Question Axolotls & Gravel - Gastrolith/buoyancy aid or not?

This question has probably been discussed to no end.. but I'm interested in our members current thoughts on the subject.

I had been looking around the web at information on Axolotls biotope in relation to substrate, when I came across this document: http://www.dinosaurhunter.org/files/...sification.pdf.

It also turns out that Wikipedia uses this document as reference to their section on 'Captive Care' where they state 'There are persistent statements in pet care literature that axolotls cannot be kept on gravel because gravel causes fatal digestive impaction. There is no evidence to support this myth and counter evidence that normal healthy axolotls regularly ingest gravel and pass it without any negative consequences. The axolotl, like many amphibians, may be deliberately ingesting gravel to act as a gastrolith providing buoyancy control and aiding digestion, preventing impaction, rather than causing it. Axolotls deprived of appropriately sized gravel will ingest anything else they can find while attempting to satisfy their instinctive need for gastroliths and this behaviour, combined with lack of appropriate gastroliths, may be a cause, among others, of fatal impaction'

Some of the information in the above linked document show its plausible that gravel is used in trituration of food, also information within this text seems to suggest substrate is used in buoyancy control: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Click image for larger version

Name:	Table1.png
Views:	262
Size:	39.6 KB
ID:	44732

Any thoughts ??



__________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order luck, we call it.
Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time bad luck we call it.
AxolotlChris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2015   #2
nai live
(xxianxx)
Prolific Member
 
xxianxx's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 2,567
Gallery Images: 4
Comments: 7
Rep: xxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgxxianxx is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Axolotls & Gravel - Gastrolith/buoyancy aid or not?

I think who ever wrote the article has a pea for a brain. The two main problems i would have are the statements that no evidence exists to prove gravel causes impaction and lack of gravel in the gut can cause impaction. There is ample evidence of the first claim non for the second. Havent time to read the source of this info yet but will do so , there may be an interesting study which is being misused or i may find some more pea brained **** , eithers good for me lol



__________________
Phibs available atm A.andersoni, axolotl ,alpine newts, ribbed newts normal and leucistic. Golden mantella now ready.
xxianxx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2015   #3
Chris
(AxolotlChris)
Prolific Member
 
AxolotlChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 1,073
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: AxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and information
Question Re: Axolotls & Gravel - Gastrolith/buoyancy aid or not?

Just found a thread from back in May that covers this subject to an extent: http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-beg...substrate.html

One user in that thread actually posted the links to what I have linked above, but no one discussed the information within them.

The document 'A review of gastrolith function with implications
for fossil vertebrates and a revised classification'
is quite interesting, looking at all the theories of gastrolith function, even those which are not generally accepted by the scientific community.

One section from the 'Summary' of this document states: 'It is clear that not all gastroliths have a physiological function. Accidental intake is relatively common in species with particular feeding habits (e.g., carnivorous taxa or ant−eaters). A low percentage of gastrolith−bearing individuals within a taxon indicates that gastroliths were accidentally ingested or fulfil a function that is not critical for survival (e.g.,Gionfriddo and Best 1999; Cheng et al. 2006).'

Seems to me that the gastrolith theory doesn't hold enough evidence to prove Axolotls use gravel for the reasons Wikipedia state, and that the article has used the reference of the study to benefit their own biased conclusion.

Can the entry on Wikipedia be changed? Surely its biased and with no true evidence?



__________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order luck, we call it.
Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time bad luck we call it.
AxolotlChris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2015   #4
auntiejude
Axolotl Enthusiast
 
auntiejude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 3,686
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 0
Rep: auntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.orgauntiejude is considered an Authority at Caudata.org
Default Re: Axolotls & Gravel - Gastrolith/buoyancy aid or not?

In order to discuss this subject you have to consider the different types of gravel available in the aquarium trade. Most commercially available gravel is design for fish tanks, and to provide high surface area for the growth of beneficial bacteria. It is rough and fairly porous, and typically 5-12mm in size. This makes it unsuitable for axolotls as they would struggle to pass large jagged pieces of stone if ingested.

Smaller smooth pieces are suitable, for example the Axogravel available in parts of Europe which are around 3mm.

As for the gastrolith theory, it may well have been of benefit in the wild lakes for axies to ingest small stones for this purpose when they were regularly feeding on insects, snails or crustaceans with hard shells and exoskeletons. However, in captivity, gravel is not necessary as a gastrolith as we feed them soft food - worms, insect larvae, pellets etc.

And since other substrates such as sand can provide adequate surface area for bacteria, and low-risk stones such as river rocks or slate pieces are available, there is no point taking the risk with gravel.



__________________
I've given up counting since it changes on a weekly basis. I keep axolotls, salamanders, newts, a beardie and an oscar.
My Facebook axolotl page
auntiejude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25th November 2015   #5
Chris
(AxolotlChris)
Prolific Member
 
AxolotlChris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Nationality:
Location: [ Members Only ]
Posts: 1,073
Gallery Images: 0
Comments: 1
Rep: AxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and informationAxolotlChris has given good advice and information
Default Re: Axolotls & Gravel - Gastrolith/buoyancy aid or not?

That pretty much sums it up. Its pretty logical that sharp jagged gravel will cause internal issues, take the tahitian moon sand, its clearly jagged and sharp: http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-beg...l-axolotl.html

So it seems logical that smooth rounded 3mm gravel would be easily passed in the event that gravel was eaten. But whether its worth any risk is down to the owner.

From what I can tell, lake Xochimilco's bed is a mud/plant based. So sand and gravel is really not a natural substrate.

Seems more likely that Axolotl eat gravel by accident, I can't ever see an Axolotl picking out stones from a lake bed as a gastrolith. Its more likely Axolotl mistake gravel as food.



__________________
Victory awaits him who has everything in order luck, we call it.
Defeat is certain for him who has neglected to take the necessary precautions in time bad luck we call it.
AxolotlChris is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
buoyancy, gastrolith, gravel, impaction

Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads

Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Axolotls need gravel? birdsong Axolotl General Discussion 9 10th April 2015 08:42
Question: How do axolotls control their buoyancy? tinyali Axolotl General Discussion 2 17th March 2014 05:11
Axolotls on gravel :( digitalxri0t Sick Axolotl? 10 11th December 2013 21:27
Problem with baby axolotl: He doesn't get the whole buoyancy thing Antony Rossi Axolotl General Discussion 7 5th March 2010 22:58
Buoyancy Issues :( Zorak Axolotl tank set-ups, filters, substrate 8 11th June 2009 16:58


All times are GMT. The time now is 19:49.