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Unethical breeding

xxianxx

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I work off the premise that somebody who breeds axolotls should only release fit and healthy individuals into the hobby. Unfortunately this is starting to become a minority view. For those of you with a sensitive and bunny hugging disposition please leave this thread now, never breed any axolotls and continue on with your life hugging trees, stroking unicorns etc as I'm about to discuss murdering axolotls.
Axolotls produce hundreds of eggs, in a natural environment most wouldn't make it, natural selection would thin the population down to a few healthy individuals. In captivity this just doesnt happen, selective pressures are left down to the breeder who in most cases is trying to hit 0% mortality rate, zero deaths in a batch is cause for celebration and a genuine mark of a good breeder in some quarters. Little thought is given to the poor quality of animals they release into the hobby. Animals which may end up breeding and passing on their substandard genes. There will be a long term impact on the health of captive axolotls if this continues
Culling is not a pleasant thing for a breeder to do but it's essential to thin out the weak or deformed in a batch, if somebody is unable to do this don't breed axolotls.
A few years ago I posted a thread about the sale of a "special axolotl" at a premium price, the link to the add was removed from the thread btw http://www.caudata.org/forum/f46-be...-discussion/85781-what-do-you-guys-think.html
A deformed axolotl at a premium price.....fail. I was hoping this was a one off occurrence but the sale of dwarf axolotls has become more common in fb groups, carrying a premium price it's only a matter of time before these guys get selectively bred to generate cash. This is pure greed, short sighted and gives no thought for the well being of the animal, dwarfs do not live a natural life span, they appear to die younger than normal axolotls, do they suffer due to their condition ? Idk but the fact they die young indicates a severe failing in them. It is not a desirable trait on animal welfare grounds but unfortunately dwarfs attract a lot of attention from hobbiests who coo over their "cuteness", it makes me want to puke. White tigers, pedigree dogs all bred by humans with no concern for anything other than their own selfish desires, with zero concern for the short life spans and health problems which will plague those animals throughout their lives. Is this the fate in store for captive axolotls ? Probably.....
If you are a breeder you guys have a responsibility to remove the deformed, sick and weak axolotls from your tanks. Don't release them into the hobby, don't rehome them out of kindness as they may end up breeding once they get a "friend" as axolotls need friends apparently and pine if left on their own.... Bite the bullet, be responsible for the quality of your animals, cull what needs culling.
 

Canecorsonewt

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Agreed look at English Bulldogs. They looked a lot like American bull dogs in the 40s in till bread for looks. Know i think they are all born through c section? Besides skin problems and bad hips over heating list goes on. Now they are not even a working dog just some think there cute. But our world is only about money and looks. Its good there isn't money to be made of human dwarfs. Or most of this world would have at least one tea cup kid. Just to keep up with the trends.
 

xxianxx

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Please don't link human dwarfism to this thread otherwise we will have discussions about eugenics. There is no connection between ethical breeding of axolotls and culling short humans
 

Donna001

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Ok, just moving away from the more controversial topic of human genetics (but couldn't help chuckling at the phrase "tea cup kid", sorry) and back to the responsibilities of breeders and unethical breeding. I read through the previous thread as well, and learned a lot. I haven't seen any pictures of the sorts of deformities discussed in the previous thread, and have no intention in actively seeking them out.
Currently, and for the foreseeable future, probably forever, I do not intend to breed axolotls. I think that they are amazing creatures, but I know that I would want to keep them all if any of mind did breed, and that's unreasonable.
I think that ethical breeding includes not breeding related axolotls, ensuring the gene pool does not become a puddle, and I think it's a shame that axolotls cannot be neutered prior to selling as pets.
I think that unethical breeding includes the selling of inbred and/or deformed axolotls to people who may not understand or care about the implications of breeding said animals further.
I do not have any issues with different colours of axolotls, or whether people consider them as pets or not, as long as the welfare of the animal is the priority. I think it is acceptable to keep a deformed animal as a pet, but unacceptable to breed from it.
I did not see the original advert, but I understand that someone was selling a deformed axolotl for a premium price. I class that as unethical and greedy, and also (by inflating the price and emphasising rarity) could create a demand for further unfortunate animals.

I would like to emphasise that this is only my opinion, and I do not expect people to agree with me on everything/anything.
 

AmberLouiseT

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I think the topic of culling is always going to be a bit heated and make some people rather uncomfortable. But the fact of it is - if you let damaged DNA be passed down the line again and again - eventually most of the axolotl's in the british pet trade (and the rest of the world) will be weakened, damaged and more than likely deformed.
Culling occurs naturally in the wild. The weaker ones will be killed or eaten by a predator and this gives the stronger ones more of a fighting chance. The predator would go for an 'easier' meal, no?

I know the subject of culling often evokes a strong emotional reaction, nobody likes the idea of taking a life, it's a emotional, uncomfortable and unpleasant situation. But it is a necessary thing, if we want to keep the already very limited gene pool healthy.

If you choose to keep the deformed axolotl alive, that is perfectly fine - love it, nurture it and give it the best life you possibly can. But DO NOT breed it. If you cared about that axolotl in any way, shape or form, you wouldn't even consider breeding it due to the amount of stress it would put on the axolotl's already fragile body.

I hate how cold-hearted I must sound but I hate the fact that people may purposefully breed deformed axolotls, just for the extra money, even more.
 

Niels D

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I agree with most what is said here. This discussion reappears now and then within this hobby. If you truly love nature, you have to understand it's cruelty as well, because it has a purpose. In nature not only the deformed specimens die. A lot of healthy and good ones don't make it either, only to reassure that only the "crème de la crème" will make it to pass on their genes. I'm not only talking about axolotls of course.

Some think it's cruel that I keep a lot of larvae (varying in size) together. I don't believe that in this way I can recreate natural selection as it is done in nature, but I can mimic it at least. Of course there's plenty of food available, but some larvae just seem to develop faster then others. If these faster growing larvae decide to prey on a smaller sibling, I'm not going to intervene. This method almost always results in healthy and stunning adult animals if all other requirements of raising them properly are met.

You get (a little) less offspring, so it is easyer to find new owners in a responsible way. Overflooding the market with certain species has a lot of negative effects on the long run. Maybe some of you recognize the trend of some species being abundant due to populatity and mass breeding at one time, only to become rare after a few years. The idea of "everybody has them" can result in almost nobody having them. So breeding responsible (or unethical) is something I can recommend as well, not only when it comes to axolotls. You're not going to get rich selling axolotls anyway, no matter what some people claim.
 
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auntiejude

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I was offered a lot of money for my dwarf by someone who wanted to breed her. I said no.
But I wouldn't keep a dwarf again, I only did it the once to see how she would turn out and if she would survive.
I was quite strict with my last batch of babies, any that were weak or failing to thrive were fed to some older juvies.
I wish we could also persuade people to cull eggs or larvae and only raise a handful or couple of dozen - I see way too many people trying to raise a whole batch of eggs (500+) and then end up either heartbroken because loads die or saddled with a load of babies because they can't sell them or give them away.
 

xxianxx

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CPL

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I totally agree with original post & auntjude's comments on people raising large batches. What happens to these animals in the long term? We need ethical breeding but also responsible ownership which for most people would surely include not breeding. If people want the experience of breeding they ofcourse have the right but i feel they should consider the ethics of raising large batches or repeated breeding.

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Dark

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I'm relatively new to the hobby and have been using this site, amongst others to learn as much as I can. I own a dwarf copper, she lives with another female. She copes well and is healthy, but there's a definite difference between the two, I wouldn't say she's cute haha. She will never breed, but will be well cared for - I have no issues with culling, I use live food with all my newts and axolotls, what's the difference providing as natural an environment as possible, I'm not in this to make money. Let's be Darwinist about this!
 

xxianxx

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Nice new thread in the fb group "axolotlaholics" about two headed axolotls. Plenty of fans who want one........
 

Donna001

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I have come to the conclusion that I just don't understand some people.
 

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Hoagii

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You're preaching to the choir over here. I work in veterinary medicine and the amount of facepalming I do any time someone thinks they need to breed their genetically flawed dog... Ugggggggghhhhhh.

In a way, I can understand wanting a deformed animal as a pet; our fascination with oddities is nothing new, and maybe curiosity plays a part as well. But I absolutely agree that breeders shouldn't be aiming to breed a deformity. I'm reminded of a story I heard in college of a family that tried to breed "Twisty Kats" after they had a female cat born with twisted front legs. She had to walk upright like a kangaroo and they thought it was cute. Rather than immediately sterilizing the animal like any sane person should have, they bred her and produced more poor kittens that couldn't walk properly. It does make you wonder what goes through a person'a head.
 

JM29

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Just some remarks :

- I understand well the collective long-term issue with breeding individuals carrying deformities. Ok as long as this character is strongly inheritable. Do someone know more about this? Perhaps such deformities can appear under environmental influence. Genetic should not be the screen to hide bad breeding conditions.

- There are two main methods to rear axolotls : keeping only a few eggs and caring well to avoid losses, or keeping several dozens eggs andlarvae in semi-natural conditions and finally keeping the healthier. The two methods should not give the same results as the second can correct a but some effects of inbreeding. Anyways, it's another form of domestication as this method tends to select fast-growing and aggressive individuals (unintentional domestication). Not only morphology, but also comportment, may theoretically be affected.

- A real natural selection is difficult because noone seriously considers intentionally adding predators to a batch of axolotls.
 
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