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Possibly gravid? (C. orientalis)

R

rodrigo

Guest
My female cynops has changed a bit lately. Her cloaca has changed, it´s bigger.
Also she has spent the whole day on the elodea, and has been acting like if she was laying eggs. No eggs though...but crearly it´s a laying behaviour, she grabs leafs and puts the cloaca between them.
I didn´t expect her to be gravid (if she is), but she does look fat(she has eaten a lot lately so she just could be fat, not gravid), and this new behaviour it´s too suspicious.
At this point i take for granted she is indeed gravid, but it´s not 100% sure, is it??
Do they act like this normally? acting like laying eggs without laying them??
Maybe some kind of preparatory stuff??
Here is a pic of her today...crappy pick....couldn´t take a decent one, but i hope you can see her cloaca and the new shape it has.

77511.jpg
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
Ok...can someone at least tell me their experience with C.o breeding, please??
I don´t know anything about cynops breeding...and i might be misunderstanding their behaviour.
 
J

jennifer

Guest
I've seen female Cynops having a somewhat larger cloaca during egg laying. Your female's cloaca looks unusually large, more so than I have ever seen before. Her body shape looks normal for a gravid female.

Your tank is heavily-planted, are you sure she didn't hide some eggs? Eggs are easy to not-see.

Some people have reported seeing male newts making a kind of egg-laying posture/gesture, so this behavior could also indicate other things besides egg laying, like constipation or some irritation of the cloaca. So, there may be other possibilities.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
No eggs...i´m pretty sure...plus she has stopped doing the laying stuff, and doesn´t look any fatter.
I just don´t understand this two hehe...i´ll wait and see if she changes...
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
Incredible....one egg haha
These newts confuse me a lot...but obviously that egg didn´t come from mars so the female is gravid. She doesn´t look very fat though...I´ve seen the pics of gravid cynops and my female is not even half as fat.
Also i´ve checked the elodea and the other plants and i haven´t found any other egg...just that one.
I guess she´ll lay more.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
Just saw her lay another one...there have to be more but i can´t find them.
What about that thing of the 65 days before laing fertile eggs...?? that means this eggs are not fertile...or that she was already gravid before i got her....and now those 65 days have passed...???
I´m sorry...i´m confused...
 
J

jennifer

Guest
You have me confused too, Rodrigo. I don't think you mentioned... is there no male? How long since she was with males? I have no idea what you are talking about regarding 65 days, where did you hear that?

A "virgin" newt can lay eggs. They would obviously be infertile. In the absence of a male, the female is less likely to lay eggs, but it can still happen. They can store sperm, but for how long I don't know.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Cynops/C_orientalis.shtml
There...
And there is a male. If the male is the father of those eggs then it´s something really recent cause he´s been tail-fanning and stuff for about 20 days.
It´s the 65 days thing that confuses me...
I´ve had them for two months or so...but the male can have only been the father since 20 days ago.
So the 65days thing is not true??? they start laying a few days after receiving the spermatophore then???
btw....she is trying to lay like crazy right now...but seems not to find any leaf of her appeal...i guess in a few days i´ll have dozens..O_O *dances all around of excitement*

P.S:I´m sorry if i´m confusing you...but you know...english is not my maternal language...i try my best but i guess i make a lot of mistakes.

(Message edited by azhael on February 07, 2007)
 
J

jennifer

Guest
Wow, I never read that bit about it taking 65 days before they can lay fertile eggs... or I didn't take it seriously. I would be really surprised if that were true, though I suppose it is possible. Where was the female before 20 days ago? If she came from a pet shop, she was probably with males there.
 
R

roy

Guest
I do not really believe the 65 days. I'd like to see the original source.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
Only 4 eggs so far....very little Ô_o
The eggs are fertilize though...or so they seem, so i guess that 65 days thing is not true. The eggs must have been fertilize by my male...definitely, and that happened 20 days ago at the most.
Now i wonder why she doesn´t lay more...
 
J

jennifer

Guest
Cynops can be very "leisurely" about laying eggs. One egg per female per day (or less) is typical for my C. pyrrhogaster.

I'm still not clear on what the situation has been for your newts, Rodrigo. What was the situation over 20 days ago? I think what you are saying is... the male and female have been together for (how long?), but the male has only been seen doing courtship for 20 days? Is that correct?
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
yup...that´s right .they´ve been together since i got them more than two months ago...
The male became ready now around 30 days ago.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
More eggs! I´ve found three more eggs ...this has to be the most weird female cynops ever...hehe.
It´s been 7 days since she last laid...i had lost all faith of her laying more and...weeeeee!!!! now there are more...
Their older brothers are developing nicely.
Now that there are more...and there will probably be more in the next weeks i´m considering the brine shrimp kit....
 
J

jennifer

Guest
OK, I have some clarification about the "65 days" thing. I got a copy of the original article (Thanks, Tim!). It is in Chinese, but has an English summary. The English was written by a non-native English user, so not all of it is understandable. The reference is:
Yang, D. and Shen, Y. (1993) Studies on the breeding ecology of Cynops orientalis. Zoological Research 14 (3): 215-220.

What it says is:
"After taking-sperm, the female can spawn normally in 65 days at least, which differs from Cynops cyanurus (14 days)."

I have a feeling that what they mean is that the female can spawn FOR 65 days after she gets the spermatophore.

A couple of other interesting tidbits from this paper:
Females lay 10-263 eggs (average 96) at an average rate of 2.8 eggs per day. The optimal water temperature for spawning is 15-23C.

I may get Nate to make a couple of changes in the caresheet.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
That makes a lot more sense.
It really confused me, and made me think something was wrong...so it would be great to change it so that no other newbie gets confused.
btw..right now i have 10 eggs...the first four are very developed....i´d say they´ll hatch in a few days. I´m so damn excited hehe
 
M

michelle

Guest
Hi Rodrigo.
I don't want to jump into the middle of yours Jennifer's conversation (even though it is an interesting one) but could you post some pictures especially when they hatch? I'm glad your excited I wish you luck.
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
Sure, i took some pics yesterday and will take more, so as soon as my house mate´s back (this is his computer) i´ll post them.
 
T

TJ

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Jen, the source cited in Studies on the Breeding Ecology of Cynops orientalis for that "65 days" info is a separate 1988 report contained in the Chinese monthly journal Acta Ecologica Sinica. It has a similar sounding name, Studies on the Reproductive Ecology of Cynops orientalis. I'll try and access that article, but in the meantime, the part in the former article that deals with this matter is item 3 on page 219 (if we can find somebody to translate that for us as I can't accurately do so). The matter is also mentioned in the Interspecific Difference between Cynops orientalis and Cynops cyanurus chart that's on page 218. The Chinese characters there, which are the same as in Japanese, mean "receive sperm ability" or in other words "fertilization." But instead of "65 days," it says "several months" for C. orientalis and "14 days" for C. cyanurus. In the text, it says "2 months" for C. orientalis and 14 days for C. cyanurus. No mention of "65 days" except in the English summary.

(Message edited by TJ on February 23, 2007)
 
R

rodrigo

Guest
And after 30 days ...i finally got my first hatched larva!!! I´ll post pics later. It´s been a hard wait...i expected it to hatch the day 22-24, and it has taken 30 days. It´s weird since i´ve been observing it´s growth in the egg and in the last week or so there has been little to no change in the larvae. Actually looks like if it had been waiting, ready to hatch, inside the eggs, for a good moment. It´s bigger than other larvae i´ve seen (lissotriton), with 1cm of length...all black and looking great. I´m so excited!!! I can´t wait for the others to hatch.
 
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