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Near and Middle Eastern Newts (Neurergus) Arguably the most beautiful newts in the world, this Asian genus is highly desired by many hobbyists.


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Old 16th December 2004   #1
sergé
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Just wondering if anyone had so much money to waste that he/she could trade with the russians offering Neurergus kaiseri (they said they would come in november..now it's december). I would be interested to see if the company managed to smuggle them out of Iran.



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Old 16th December 2004   #2
Michael Shrom
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They are advertised as being available in Canada on Kingsnake.com. I doubt they have them. I think they are advertising in anticipation of getting them.



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Old 17th December 2004   #3
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I heard from Tim that kaiseri are now showing up for sale in Japan too. It's really sad if they are being taken from the wild in Iran for mass export.



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Old 20th December 2004   #4
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They were already for sale in Japan before (see some other threats) but I was just wondering if indeed the russians had already smuggeld them. The kingsnake advert is indeed anticipating I guess.
Well, I just hope they don't get out, just like you Jennifer. The ones that have been captive bred now should be good enough to establish breeding colonies, but they are simply not that easy.



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Old 20th December 2004   #5
Michael Shrom
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Maybe exporting some before George Bush gets a chance to kill them isn't a bad idea.



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Old 21st December 2004   #6
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It is...a species has no right of existence if it's natural habitat isn't there to my opinion. But But even if George W goes there they are just as hidden as Osama Bin Laden...so don't think he will get to them Click the image to open in full size..



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Old 29th December 2004   #7
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I have emailed both of the persons responsible for offering these N. kaiseri and have been led to believe they are being sent from Iran. I personally wouldn't trust this kingsnake.com classified add user. They might provide healthy animals at a price some are willing to pay but their legality is probably questionable.
Travis



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Old 29th December 2004   #8
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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Bion Terrarium who are a wholesaler in Europe are selling WC's from Iran.



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Old 3rd January 2005   #9
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Okay, so there is no one right now having them from Bion or from this fishy kingsnake add. That's good news for the newts still living in the wild in Iran.



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Old 11th January 2005   #10
Mike East
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http://www.bion.com.ua/hotitems/
Our friends in Kiev are still peddling them for sale.
Minimum international order--2000 Euros--prepaid, any takers? Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 11th January 2005   #11
Andrew Tillson-Willis
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I spoke to an importer yesterday about them, we noticed that according to this: http://www.globalamphibians.org/servlet/GAA?searchName=Neurergus+kaiseri
"The population is estimated to be fewer than 1,000 mature individuals" yet if you add up all those being offered for sale by various people it comes to more than 1000 mature individuals so they must now be extinct in the wild.Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 12th January 2005   #12
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There are animals in captivity which have been bred by a german and an austrian who collected some specimens a few years ago. There are F1 and F2 around. Of those breedings many have been spread over Europa and some into the US.
Besides that there are the animals sometimes shown here in Japan of which I don't know where they come from.

They are for certain not extinct in the wild, as the area is very restricted and controlled by military. But the wild population is very vulnerable (as far as we know) and therefor people who have animals should be very careful and try to breed them, so that interest in getting wild animals will drop. The problem is that it is not very easy to breed them and many people want them (although they are not the easiest and very shy newts). We need time to figure out how we can keep them the best...

I think the minimum order price is just there so they can hussle someone that has the guts to go to Iran and smuggle animals. It is as criminal as drugs traffic. Let's just hope that no one orders them in Kiev. That's for the best for this species.



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Old 21st January 2005   #13
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i know are available 50 kaiserii, from an internet site. but i do not know if it is real. 75 dollars each, adults.........

wc sure....



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Old 31st January 2005   #14
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I like to inform the community: It is not necessary to smuggle N. kaiseri out of Iran. This species is NOT PROTECTED there! As we exported our animals to Europe in 1995 we consulted the chief veterinarian office in Teheran. We only needed a permit for transporting them by plane. This was cleared by the Austrian embassy. It was easy to bring them out legally. But it was nearly impossible to go to the habitat because western Lurestan was strictly prohibited military area. As far as I know this is going on.



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Old 4th March 2005   #15
Tim Johnson
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Hi Guenter,

Do you mean to say that this species is currently not protected by law? Or do you mean that it is effectively left unprotected because of lack of enforcement of any relevant law?

I ask this because the Global Amphibian Assessment states the following:

"The species is protected by Iranian national legislation."


(Message edited by TJ on March 04, 2005)



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Old 6th March 2005   #16
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In 1995 no urodela species was protected by law in Iran. We needed a permit only for shipping by plane and got it from the chief vet in Teheran. We shipped N. kaiseri, N. microspilotus and S. s. semenovi. All we did was well known by the government.



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Old 6th March 2005   #17
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Hello to all,

I am seriously wondering about several people here arguing about "smuggling out of Iran" and blaming that. First: Is there any evidence that the N. kaiseri have been exported from Iran illegally? There is a possibility to export them legally. Just apply for. Secondly: How can one blame others to be a smugglers when this person himself has been provably smuggling newts and salamanders from other countries?

Where have all the turkish Neurergus come from? Fallen from heaven? No! They all have been taken illegally as the Turkish Republik doesn´t grant any collecting permits for these. Same for Salamandra infraimmaculata or Triturus vittatus ssp.!

I have taken N. kaiseri from this source. Shame on me! Or whom?

When looking at what is going on here my stomach starts contracting. Smuggler´s blues so to say.

Please, don´t put up as judges over others if you are not only not better but possibly worse!

Just to think about: There have been several people from the Netherlands, and Germany being arrested in Brazil for illegal collection of fish. I have been collecting in Brazil as well, am I a smuggler by that? No, I have had export permits! Can show you. But generally the Republic of Brazil doesn´t grant export permits. Why then could I have them two times? I found the right channel. Compareable to the source of N. kaiseri. Possibly.

But one thing can be said as being approved: there is no legally collected Neurergus crocatus, strauchii/barani or microspilotus in captivity for what I know! Nor any legal vittatus ssp. or any other Triturus from Turkey. Except those being imported before 1980 resp. the empowering of the applicable turkish laws. But hardly any specimen from this line is present. Would be glad to be wrong with this but evidence is strong.

So now, what to say?

Final word on this to all who are concerned: stop pretending to be the watchguard of the holy grale if you only want to keep others off from what you are doing yourselves! Do whatever you like in your private but don´t discriminate others in the public without evidence. Thank you.

Steffen



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Old 6th March 2005   #18
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P.S.: The Ukraine is not Russia and their people not "Russians". Russia belongs to the GUS (Union of Independent States) while the Ukraine is a sovereign state outside of this union. The terms used in this thread somewhat remind me of the actual discussion in Germany where there is no active differentiation made between certain criminal groups and the citizenship in general.

Steffen



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Old 7th March 2005   #19
sergé
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Thanks for putting me up to the stand. I don't care about legal or not legal. Because most of the laws are stupid anyway. But..i have asked the Iranian government if there was a legal export, so if I get an answer I'll let you know.

But...to my opinion there is still a difference in collecting 5 juveniles that will survive into adulthood and will breed or 50 or more adults of which half will perish on the way to the serious keeper.

And for that I will stand, illegal or legal, law or no law. My point is the fact that a natural population suffers for sure when a large group of the breeding population is being taken. It won't suffer if only a few animals are taken. Kaiseri is known from only a very restricted area, and if we can't even keep the animals now kept and bred in captivity than why getting new ones? But I hope you breed them by the hundreds, it would be the best thing, now they are in Europe.

For the misidentification of the wholesale-discounter-trader I apologise. But for me it is not important which is his (99% it is a male who is in charge) nationality.

Sergé



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Old 7th March 2005   #20
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Sergé,

I am happy we have a similar basis of understanding. We already had a personal discussion on this topic. There are severe regulations and laws coming towards all of us and our hobby making it more and more difficult following them AND pursuing our hobby. Finally, to me there is no difference in illegal (=non-authorized) exportation between private and commercial groups. Disrespecting laws is disrespecting laws. And by this one disrespects the sovereignity of a country and its peoples right to establish their own laws. What would anybody from us think, feel, and do if there was a foreigner coming into our forests and collects animals or plants to take them out without permission? It is just the same the other way around.

Of course it would be better to start a breeding stock from a smaller number of specimen rather than to collect a huge number. But the kaiseri are here now and should be offered best possible conditions meaning to get into the right hands. I am not sure if my hands will be the right for them but will do any efforts to have them established and reproducing. We will see. For this I have reduced my number off maintained species significantly to have an optimum in room and time for them. This includes a separate room (chamber) with AC and periodical steering of parameters which should be finished before summer within my new setup.

More I would have liked the previous offspring of kaiseri (my information is there have been some hundreds over the past ten years) to be treated more carefully as they are gone completely more or less. But this is in the responsibility of the breeders and the people who get them.

I dont know where the actual offspring has been given to but I couldn´t get any. The more I was happy to get them from this import. BTW there are two independently acting wholesalers offering the kaiseri. And as one of them offers "cb" already I am positively sure that they will have bred from the numerous specimen they received. And will put the offspring into the market successively. This will affect the irrational prices, make it less attractive to import this species and offer more people the opportunity to try this delicate newt. From this point, the role of these exporters aren´t so bad. They seem to have much more success from their strategy (taking a large number of specimen to establish breeding groups - which is natural for many species) compared to the strategy of taking only some.
I have personal comments from scientists who have collected kaiseri in large numbers, about 50 within half an hour (and could have taken much more within the same time) from just one spot. And there are much more spots known now than there were some years ago.

More, the climatic conditions mentioned for their distribution area in the Zagros are not completely attributable. From climate servers for science there are data which give evidence about possible annual seasoning different from what I have read until now.

I am in contact with scientists from Iran and hope to have more precise data from actual ecological studies in the Zagros soon.

Steffen



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