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bumps

D

dragonwalker

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Hi,

I usually post in the Tylototriton forum but think that this may be less species specific.

Last year, I was fortunate enough to have breeding T. shanjing (professional institution not my home unfortunately). I ended up with over forty morphs and after some going to other zoos and some deaths, i now have thirty in my care.

Two started to get strange contortions in the body and have developed lumps along the spine. They seem to act twitchy as well when touched. As I feed all the same and they have been like this for a while (also one had some discolouration, the other didn't) I wasn't sure what it could be, but now there are a few others in other tanks also developing some of these lumps along the spine.

They are kept in clean tubs with one end with moist paper towels and moss.
I offer them food daily, fruit fly larvae, blackworms, pinheads and fruit flies. Most of them are still quite small and are nowhere near eating larger foods.

Any ideas on if this could be a calcium problem or something else? Some of the ones that developed the lumps did so during my weeks vacation and the paper towels had not been changed; they were dirty and did not hold moisture as well. They had slough on them that had dried that I had to take off.

Also, they hang out in the moss which is the damp end and they slough often. Is it perhaps too damp for them, but when I let it dry more then they get slough stuck on them.

Any suggestions?

Thank you.

Rachel
 

Ed

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Hi Racheal,

Have you had the vet biopsy the lumps or at least take a scraping to look at under the microscope?

Ed
 

andrew

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I'd love to know why this happens, but it's not uncommon at all in my experience. I know exactly what you mean from your description. I'm afraid that whenever i've had this happen with Shanjing morphs it's not too long before they die. I've heard of this problem occuring with alot of peoples c/b Shanjing too.
 
D

dragonwalker

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vet

Thanks for the info. Even though it is awful that it happens, it is also good that I am not alone and am not a terrible caregiver.

The vet came today and seems to think that it could be calcium deficiency and is going to x-ray some of them next week to compare the healthy against the sick. He also wanted me to put a UV light directly above them (they had UV lights but not very close to the top of the tank) and give calcium supplements on their food (which I have done periodically but not as much as he wants us to do it now).

If anyone could help me in terms of the constant sloughing and if this is common, or could they be hanging around the damp end too much (as they like to hide in the damp moss).

In terms of aspirating the bumps. they are on the spine and definitely seem to be skeletal. However, if the radiographs don't show anything then maybe they will look at that.

Thanks for the help and any further information that can be offered on yearling care.

Rachel
 

andrew

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Yes, the bumps are more skeletal...more like a a small, upward kink in the spine. As for the excessive shedding, in my experience this is a sign of an unhealthy/stressed newt. Whenever i've had sick newts...whatever the illness may be, they shed very often....once or twice a week. Not only do they shed alot but the skin doesn't come off in one piece. It comes off in patches.
I'll be really interested in what the vet says. If it is a calcium deficiency, then i wonder why it only effects a few whilst the others dont get the problem. Also, why do Shanjing seem to be pre-disposed to having the problem?
Look forward to hearing anything you learn on the matter.
 
D

dragonwalker

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thank you

Thank you for the extra information and I will keep everyone informed of what the radiographs show. I am also going to let the vet know that this is not unknown in shanjing and see what he says.

Rachel
 

Mark

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This is something I've seen in both T.verrucosus and T.shanjing. In most cases I've witnessed it's taken the form of a lump/kink at the base of the spine. It will be very interesting to hear the findings.
 

Ed

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snip "the bumps are more skeletal...more like a a small, upward kink in the spine"endsnip

If this is what you are seeing then it is some disruption of the calcium metabolism. The cause needs to be determined because if its due to an improper calcium to phosphorus ration then increasing the D3 in the diet and exposure to UVB won't address the situation. Similarly if the cause is due to too much vitamin A (as retinol) in the diet (vitamin A competes for uptake with D3 and E ) then increasing just the calcium won't help resolve the issue.

(for a review (a little old but still usable) see http://www.tracyhicks.com/FFAQ.htm scroll the menu bar on the left and click on MBD).

The reason I asked if you have had them biopsies was to see if there was some kind of infection causing the deformation. We have seen this at work with other herps.

With respect to the continous shedding and issues with the retained skin, has the vet looked at scrapings under a microscope for chytrid? Frequent shedding particuarly with issues shedding can be indicative of a chytrid infection. There is also a relitively inexpensive PCR test that can be run on them to determine if there is a chytrid infection.



Ed
 
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andrew

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Yes, Ed...i agree, but why do you think that a couple would be affected with this problem whilst others the same age, fed the same diet in the same tank etc remain perfectly normal?
 

Ed

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Hi Andrew,

That is one of the reasons I was curious as to whether or not biopsies (or necropsies) had been performed on the animals. If its due to an infection, then it can be explained to some extent by stress or other factors immunosuppressing the newt.

With diet, you really have to do a complete work-up on the diet and the behavior of the newts to see what the difference between the individuals are however I have had one Pseudobranchus a. axanthus come down with skeletal issues (see the 1st issue of the caudate mag for the picture) out of a group. I suspect this one wasn't feeding when the Enchytraeus were placed in the tank, allowing them time to void thier gut contents and as a result getting a nutritional insufficiency.

Also when animals are stressed, thier metabolism is higher causing an increased demand for those nutrients in the correct quantities.
In addition some substrates (acidic ones) may also cause an increased loss ions which can include calcium..

Once they metamorph, those species like the Tylototritons (and probably Echinotriton) which appear to be at higher risk of some disruption of the calcium metabolism could be offered a food source dusted with a complete vitamin supplement once a week to see if that makes a difference in preventing it. If the issue continues to occur I would up the dusting to twice and week and if that doesn't resolve it, do a complete workover of the husbandry. (Once the symptoms appear, the newt will always have the abnormal development). Keep in mind that complete supplements have a limited shelf life before they oxidize and typically once opened need to be replaced within 6 months.

Ed
 
D

dragonwalker

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position of bumps

Hi,

The young that I am looking after that are showing signs are developing the bump first at the top of the spine, halfway down and at the base of the spine. Only the worst has all three, all at the neck and some with top and base.

As mentioned though it seems to be affecting their whole body though as they get twitchy and their bodies become twisty. I am shocked though that this happened in one week for some. The vet wants me to supplement them with Calcium/D3 supplement every day on their fruit flies and pinheads.

They get fed every day and are offered blackworms and ff larvae daily and then fruit flies and pinheads every other day or so. They don't seem fat so I haven't worried about this and size does not seem to be a factor. However, as mentioned they are kept in a very simple set-up and I am wondering whether I give them dryer hiding spaces rather than in the damp moss, then maybe they won't slough so much?

I had a piece of food in one for shelter but someone must have knocked it when servicing the tank and one of them got squished so I took it out. I really want to know what kind of substrate would work for them and how to feed so they don't ingest it.

I know that the care sheet says something about compressed dirt, but how do you keep it compressed enough for them not to ingest? I really want to add substrate to give them more options and it is easier to steady hiding places.

I am sorry if I sound really uneducated with this, but they are the first newts that I have raised. They seemed to be doing well on the protocol until recently. It is also strange that it happened first to one of the biggest, healthiest and outgoing animal that did not seem to stress as much as the others.

Thanks for all the amazing info. Please keep it coming.

Rachel
 
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Ed

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If they are showing signs of tremors/seizures (especially when stressed or disturbed) then this does sound like a calcium metabolism issue.

In some respects it will be difficult to supplement the blackworms with calcium but I think the easiest method maybe to soak the blackworms in a calcium gluconate/glubionate solution before feeding them out to the newts.
The D3 can be administered via the oral route (if they are large enough tube fed) or via the food items.

In healthy animals we typically do not dust the food items more than every other day to avoid hypervitaminosis issues.

By the way what vitamins are you using and how long have then been open? If they have been opened more than six months then you will need fresh supplements. I would consider getting fresh supplements anyway if they are kept in an area of high humidity and/or warmth.

I have reared T. shanjing on cypress mulch as well as damp paper towels. As for hides, you can crumple up the paper towels or use pieces of cork bark (you can try in several layers) to allow the newts to spread out and look for thier own hides.


Ed
 
D

dragonwalker

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bumps cont

Hello again.

Thank you Ed for all your information.

In terms of the supplements, we date everything we open (and even UVB lights) to ensure that they are only used in their prime condition. I think that I will start soaking the blackworms. I am also concerned with vitamin toxicity and also think that maybe feeding the young Fruit fly larvae every day may be too much (although, as mentioned, they do not seem obese by any means).

We also use cypress mulch for most of our herps but it is very course and rough (with pieces as large as 4 inches in length so for our frogs (except the tree frogs) I use coco-bark. I do not like the way this substrate sticks to the animals however so I cut up moss so it is quite fine and mix a 50:50 mix which is much better and also layer it with moss. However, because these morphs are still quite small I fear that they would still ingest the pieces. I must be stupid, because balling up paper towels is such a simple idea, and they could be placed in the drier side and still allow food to be accessible.

I am currently raising some red-spotted newt larvae so any info that I gain here will help with this. I am also hoping to get a male spotted salamander as I have three very robust females. I know that they are quite common, but they have never been raised in zoos and I always love a challenge. The more that I can learn the better.

When I became a zoo keeper, I wasn't sure where I wanted to specialise, and although I enjoy all animals (except perhaps primates), amphibians have become my world and I hope to keep improving their lives and increasing my knowledge.

Take Care
 

Ed

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You should come down to Frogday (http://www.frogday.org/) and check out the Staten Island Zoo and the lectures.. (I'll be talking on caecilians)

Dating the supplements from the time of opening is a good idea but if they are complete supplements (containing vitamin A, D3 and E as well as other vitamins and minerals) then you should be aware that mixtures increase oxidation of the fat soluable vitamins and unless the supplement has been stored with an inert gas in the container, they still oxidize even when unopened (I can supply references if your vet is interested). Once the container has been opened then areas with increased humidity and warm temperature will increase the rate of oxidation of the supplement.

Fruit fly maggots should be pretty high in fat and have a modest level of vitamin E as part of thier make up (the amount of vitamin A as retinol is undetectable and I do not believe they are a source of D3) so the typically recommended ratio of vitamin A to D3 to E (in the diet) can fall outside 10:1:0.1 and potentially disrupt the calcium metabolism.

If you are using a peat or sphagnum substrate this can also be part of the problem as acidic substrates can cause ion loss. When dealing with small caudates I run the cypress through some half inch coated fence wire to screen out the bigger pieces.

Good luck with the spotteds... I worked with them for over 5 years at Philly and while I could get the female to ovulate and was once able to get some courtship behavior out of the males, I couldn't get them further. There is some thought that it works better if you rear offspring in your facility so they are adjusted to your conditions and are not trying to migrate back to thier pools...
I did breed marbles at Philly and it took collecting and rearing some larva.

Ed
 
D

dragonwalker

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They are just on unbleached paper towels at the moment so no acidity there that I know of, but they do have moss.

In terms of the vitamins that I am using, they were bought very recently with an expiration date in the far future, and were only opened about a month ago. It is only calcium and D3.

I am going to cut the larvae to every other day, and encourage them to eat more blackworms if you (Ed) think that this would be useful. They have the UVB now for four to five hours a day (within 24 inches). Light is on in the room for the rest of the day to give them some semblance of a normal cycle.

There is air conditioning in the building so the vitamins are neither in a warm, nor humid environment.

Rachel

(Oh, and in terms of Frog day, I would love to but I will be in Toledo taking an AZA course on Amphibian Biology and Husbandry which I am greatly looking forward to. But thanks for the invite.)
 
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Ed

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The moss (depending on type) can cause a acidic pH due to the release of humic acids.

What is your water source? Do you know the level of phosphate in the water supply?

I would see if the vet is okay with soaking the blackworms in calcium gluconate.

So you don't supplement with a source of vitamin A? The reason I ask is because cultured invertebrates have very little to no vitamin A or carotenoids that can be used as a source for vitamin A.

Ed
 
D

dragonwalker

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I would always check with the vet, but I would also wonder whether I could just soak them in a solution of dissolved calcium supplement. In terms of water source, we use filtered water. We have solutions to make artificial pond water, but as I just mist and it evaporates throughout the day, I don't want salt build up.

I know a lot of zoos use tap water that has been standing then adding something like amquel to get rid of chloramines (which is really high in our water).

In terms of Vitamin A, no, however would it be okay to do this as I know that it can compete with vitamin D3...what ratio would be needed?

Thanks
 

Ed

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Typically calcium supplements are CaCO3 which may not be that easy to get enough in solution to make a real difference while the calcium gluconate solutions is already at 20% and is pretty inexpensive.


Check your phosphate levels in the water (pre and post filtration). Another institution had issues with Bufo baxteri and phosphate level in the water. Some carbon in the filters has been rinsed with phosphoric acid to remove impurities with the result that these carbons leach phosphate into the water. This maybe sufficient (especially if the tap water already has phosphate in it) to change the calcium/phosphorus ratio sufficiently to induce MBD particuarly if there is inadequate supplementation in the diet.

Vitamin A as retinol will compete with D3 for uptake which why the ratio should be 10:1 A (as retinol) to D3 however most of the supplements available in the USA use beta carotene as the source of vitamin A and this doesn't compete for uptake with the D3 and oversupplementing with it is harmless.

Ed
 
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