New Setup

I have just setup my axolotls' new setup. It is a 40breeder. There are four axolotls in there. I have one each of the following: wild type, white albino, leucistic, and gray melanistic. The filtration is an AquaClear 110 and the Whisper 60 from the 20long they were in. They are all about 7". All I feed is New Life Spectrum TheraA Extra Large. These are the same axolotls from a few months ago. And the whole debate over diet was taken care of in that thread, so no need to start it over again here.

One thing I just noticed about them, I did not know the oral cavity was connected to the gills just like in fish. I thought the gills were just on the side of the head, I did not know they were connected to the oral cavity. I was watching as one grabbed a pellet and got a little sand along with it. Just like with fish that have sand in their mouth, out the gills it came.

Here is one pic, more in my Photobucket page in my signature:

Looks nice, but is that fish food??

You'll need more hiding spots than that for 4 axolotls.

I also suggest stuffing it full of plants, either fake silk or plastic, or live plants.

The tank looks good and has all the basics. The 40-breeder size is excellent for 4 axies. I agree with Kaysie that it needs more plants - and/or additional ornaments to add hiding places and diffuse the water flow. When I say "ornaments", I'm not suggesting pink castles, but things like broken pots, driftwood, big flat rocks, etc.

koala said:

Looks nice, but is that fish food??

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Koala, there was a previous thread where we discussed ad nauseum the food he is feeding them:
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=47987

They were fine with those hides, but I pulled the two on the right and added 4 3" PVC pipe connectors. I have those live plants in there to see how they do. I don't want to clutter the bottom with plants, they need walk around room. But if the live plants do well, I will let them take hold and add more.

It is mainly a fish food. It works VERY well with these guys, freshwater fish, saltwater fish, and even saltwater invertebrates. I wasn't sure how well it would do for these guys, but so far two big thumbs up.

They don't 'need' floor room to walk around. They only walk from place to place to find either food or a better place to hide.

...which is when they walk, and they need room to do so. I am not saying they are active, they are not running around playing tag or anything, but they seem to enjoy room to walk. And cluttering the bottom also creates lots of dead spots where uneaten food and poop can collect, causing water problems. The tank is much fuller now with the PVC pipes. And I do plan on having more live plants. So I don't really disagree with you, I just don't want it too full.

Where did that addition to my plast post come from? I suggested people give New Life Spectrum a try, I even said specifically that you don't need to have it as the sole diet. I think people should try high quality foods. I didn't ask everyone to throw out their old ideas of diet and take my word for it, just try it if you get the chance. From what I can tell most have some sort of pellet as at least part of their diet. In which case they should try this one, at least in addition to their usual pellets. I do not think it is improper care to try new foods that seem to have potential for success and see if it seems to help. And comments like that should be made in a reply so it is read, otherwise I would not have usually seen it, and it looks like I said it.

We've had this discussion before. I am not getting into it again.

I'd prefer if you didn't suggest people use fish food as a source of nutrition for axolotls, as a newcomer will read it, take it to heart, and say "but he said I could". What works for you doesn't work for all people.

Which is exactly why people need to try things and see what works for them. If I am not mistaken many if not most sources of information on axolotls list trout pellets as a staple in the diet of axolotls, and trout are fish. Until they start putting 'Axolotl Pellets' on the shelves, we as axolotl keepers must figure out on our own what works and what does not. This may or may not include foods that were originally designed with fish, of some sort or another, in mind.

what are the ingredients to the fish food ... does it have percentages of fat etc on the back?

Protein 38%, Fat 7%, fiber 5%, Ash 9%.

Ingredients start with: Krill, Herring, Wheat flour, Algae meal, Garlic, Soybean Isolate, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, you should be able to find the rest of the ingredients by googling. They are mainly supplements.

krill and herring sound good but garlic soyabean and wheat flour?? their digestive systems arnt made for this. These fish flakes are designed to fit as many species nutritional needs as possible so arent going to be the 'best' food you can feed your carnivorous axie fine for omnivors though.

axolotl website http://www.axolotl.org/feeding.htm says the break own of the salmon pellets that are fed to axies are "are 45% protein and 20% fat. ... trout pellets (46% protein, 16% oil)" as the uni who study the animals use these I would be inclined to choose food with a similar break down but it appears that there is too little fat (which might be a good thing for axies i dont know) but there is also too little protein . salmon/trout are carnivors who are evolved to eat the same yummy worms snails and bugs as axies so it makes sence that the food would suite both.

Out of curiousity I looked at my frozen blood worm breakdown crude protein 4.5% fat 0.4% fiber 0.6% moisture 92% so have kinda confused myself, I suppose what reptile guy is saying is variety is the spice of life and is suggesting it as an addition or occassional treat. But it would be easy for someone to read that you use fish food and go wooho got my answer log off and never think twice about it. too much of one food is not good for an axie just like us ... ever seen supersize me?

I alternate my feeds salmon pellets - worm-bloodworm- salmon pellet - worm -? (prawn/turtle sticks/heart strips/snail or what ever in fact would probably put fish food in this category)- worms. Generally its 2 worms 2 salmon pellets & 2 bloodworm feeds to every one 'other' feed.

Well too much McDonald's is very different than a well-balanced complete diet. And the need for variety in humans can't really be applied to almost anything else. We as humans (at least in developed nations) have become used to the most varied diet the planet has ever seen. Not only do we eat just about anything from nature, but that's not enough, so we make all sorts of junkfood to go with it.

And it does not come down to just the percentage of protein or fat, many times the quality of the source of that nutrient and its bio-availability can contribute highly to how much the animal can actually take in. I don't know what the usual growth rate is supposed to be for axolotls, but I got these guys at 2" in the beginning of May. Rounding up a few days I have had them for three months. They are now all about 7". Thats 2" to 7" in three months, I doubt there is too little protein. I think if they grew much faster it would be power-feeding them. That is one problem with very high protein foods. I do not know what is considered a power-fed growth rate with axolotls, but I am very happy with this growth rate. The fat levels seem good too. They are not thin by any means, but not too heavy either. Anyone know what kind of symptoms might clue to too low of a fat content?

Garlic helps prevent and treat internal parasites. It is not a medication so it can't be overdosed. So far no problems with it with axolotls.

Some other background info may help here. I bought five in the beginning of May. Two went to the manager at my work. The other three stayed with me in a 20long. When I setup the 40breeder I got back the two from the manager and gave her the one of mine that had fallen behind in growth. She had fed a varied diet (frozen bloodworms, live black worms, live guppies, carnivorous pellets, etc.). At one point about a month ago I got to see hers. They were a tad larger than mine. When I put them all together again, mine had actually passed hers in size, just by a little. They all look good and healthy. The only difference in the two groups is that mine seem a little more full in the body (a little thicker in the trunk of the body, a higher 'dorsal fin', etc.). Now I have not repeated this to make it a valid scientific experiment or anything, but it does say something about both diets.

It didn't make since to me either, that one food could be ideal for all types of fish, but the results do support it. This was one of the main reasons I was so skeptical of this food a long time ago, the first time I tried it, at which time I tried it as part of my very varied diet. I did not see anything different. But then I saw an ad in TFH magazine and I started looking into it a lot more with a more open mind. This time I tried it as the only food, that is when I saw the results that changed my mind. And it is across the board, herbivores (like mbuna cichlids), omnivores, and strict carnivores/piscivores. This applies to fish though. This is the first time I am using it as the only food for an amphibian, so far very good. And it goes along with the results people are getting with freshwater fish and invertebrates, as well as saltwater fish and invertebrates.

Everyone has a different diet. Some do nothing but live, some nothing but prepared, and many if not most are somewhere in the middle. I feed nothing but NLS. So far it is working great. I suggest it because it has proven over and over again to be the best prepared diet out there (for fish, and it seems amphibians too). I suggest that people give it a shot. If you only feed pellets, try this one, it will (probably) be better. If you feed a varied diet, include this food or replace your current pellets with it, it won't hurt and you may see an improvement. If you feed nothing but live, why not give this a shot? I do not think we are at the pinnacle of axolotl diet, which means there is room for improvement. And if there is room for improvement, we need to keep trying other things to make sure they won't get us closer to a better diet. That means trying things. Try the new pellets that come out, try the other new foods that come out, just keep trying. What is the worst that could happen, you see a deterioration in them and you switch back. Then you know that diet wasn't better. I can see why not to switch to this food a few months ago when it seemed no one had tried it yet. But I have tried it now, it is good, so all I am saying is if you have the opportunity to try this food, I highly doubt you will regret it.

There are worse things that can happen, such as liver failure.

This discussion has already been hashed out. It does not need to happen again.

What is the liver failure related to?

Incorrect amounts of fat/protein/vitamin A/etc.

You are also applying human ideals to non-human animals. Garlic can have compounds in it that can be dangerous to amphibians. Onions are fine for people to eat, but lead to liver failure in dogs. Again, comparing amphibians to fish is inaccurate, as they're NOT fish, just like dogs aren't people. I'm going to lock this thread if it continues.

sorry to continue.... but do you know where i can find a break down of vitimin protein fat etc levels recommended for axies I want to make sure they are getting all that they need and am never really that trustful of any manmade foods. I have tried to find some sort of general break down of the worms but have been unsuccessful as of yet.

I am not sure of that either. The best thing may be to start a thread in the 'Quality of Life' forum, that is where diet is listed in the description.

Does garlic pose a threat to axolotls? Garlic is put in this food for fish. It is safe to be used with fish against internal parasites. I know that axolotls are not fish. If there is a known threat to axolotls with garlic I will not use it.

This is a forum. People come to receive assistance with problems and questions and to share their experiences. I am sharing my experiences. It seems most people use pellets in their axolotl's diet. Most of those pellets were made for fish. All I am saying is give these pellets a try too. If it is to unproven to give them a try, fine.

niajetze said:

sorry to continue.... but do you know where i can find a break down of vitimin protein fat etc levels recommended for axies I want to make sure they are getting all that they need and am never really that trustful of any manmade foods. I have tried to find some sort of general break down of the worms but have been unsuccessful as of yet.

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I've never seen any sort of "minimum daily requirements" set out for axolotls. We have these things for humans, but even for humans, with vast amounts of money spent on medical research, these kinds of recommendations are highly controversial. And you can bet that nutritional research for amphibians is underfunded and nearly non-existent.

The AGSC axolotl colony (http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/) raises axolotls almost exclusively on Rangen soft moist salmon pellets. The nutritional values of those pellets can be found online:
http://www.iacuc.arizona.edu/training/xenopus/care.html

A nutritional breakdown for earthworms (and other invert feeders) can be found here:
http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf
In Table 1, "CP"=crude protein and "EE"=crude fat
In Table 2, pay attention to the ratio of Ca (calcium: phosphorous); this matters more than the absolute amount of calcium.

Reptileguy2727 said:

Protein 38%, Fat 7%, fiber 5%, Ash 9%.

Ingredients start with: Krill, Herring, Wheat flour, Algae meal, Garlic, Soybean Isolate, Fish Oil, Beta Carotene, Spirulina, you should be able to find the rest of the ingredients by googling. They are mainly supplements.

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You can find a list of ingredients for most of the NLS foods on this webpage.

niajetze said:

krill and herring sound good but garlic soyabean and wheat flour?? their digestive systems arnt made for this. These fish flakes are designed to fit as many species nutritional needs as possible so arent going to be the 'best' food you can feed your carnivorous axie fine for omnivors though.

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Even carnivores get some fiber and plant material in their diets just by eating other animals that have guts filled with the stuff. Carnivores like axolotls and fish usually eat the whole prey meaning they get all the nutritional material in the digestive tract along with the animal's flesh. This is the whole point of gutloading feeder insects.

Out of curiousity I looked at my frozen blood worm breakdown crude protein 4.5% fat 0.4% fiber 0.6% moisture 92% so have kinda confused myself, I suppose what reptile guy is saying is variety is the spice of life and is suggesting it as an addition or occassional treat. But it would be easy for someone to read that you use fish food and go wooho got my answer log off and never think twice about it.

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Two points here on this. You can't compare bloodworms to dry food because of the differences in moisture content. If you would dry the bloodworms first their percentages would increase. Also, I doubt someone is going to look at one thread buried in a discussion forum for information on how to feed their new axolotl. In my two years on the forum I have found very, very few people use the search function to answer their questions. There is also the fact that reptileguy is not promoting his food as the only way for everyone, he says it works for him.

Kaysie said:

Incorrect amounts of fat/protein/vitamin A/etc.

You are also applying human ideals to non-human animals. Garlic can have compounds in it that can be dangerous to amphibians. Onions are fine for people to eat, but lead to liver failure in dogs. Again, comparing amphibians to fish is inaccurate, as they're NOT fish, just like dogs aren't people. I'm going to lock this thread if it continues.

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While the vitamin A in this food could surely be a problem, the Rangeen pellets have Vitamin A high up on their ingredient list also. I would suspect that if the Rangeen pellets caused liver failure it would have been noted by now.

Now, I'd like to see evidence that garlic is toxic to amphibians, because we just don't know. But we don't know that soymeal or wheat flour is safe. We don't know if the worms we buy come on pesticide treated soil or if our crickets may have been fed melamine contaminated products. Garlic has been noted to have many beneficial properties for humans and it also has been used as an appetite stimulant for fish. I would be willing to believe it is safe, as it has beneficial effects on people and fish, with the proviso that I would be watching the animal's health. I know that fish and people are not axolotls or amphibians, but it is still a springboard considering our lack of knowledge.

Jennewt said:

I've never seen any sort of "minimum daily requirements" set out for axolotls. We have these things for humans, but even for humans, with vast amounts of money spent on medical research, these kinds of recommendations are highly controversial. And you can bet that nutritional research for amphibians is underfunded and nearly non-existent.

The AGSC axolotl colony (http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/) raises axolotls almost exclusively on Rangen soft moist salmon pellets. The nutritional values of those pellets can be found online:
http://www.iacuc.arizona.edu/training/xenopus/care.html

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This is the thing that truly disturbs me with the Rangeen pellets. They have ethoxyquin as a preservative. There is a ton of controversy considering this compound and its possible deleterious effects on animals. It is allowed in far greater concentrations than it is in people food and we are by far larger than any of the animals it is fed to. Google ethoxyquin and you will find tons of articles and personal anecdotes. A pubmed search of this compound also gives me a good 230 articles which shows some interest.

Currently I'd be far more willing to feed the NLS food (of which only a few have ethoxyquin) than the Rangeen pellets. I do not trust ethoxyquin and none of the animals in my apartment are fed foods with it.

As a note I don't feed pellets to my newts and I don't plan on starting. But if I did they would not be the only item in the diet. I believe in feeding a much larger variety of foods. That is not to say that a pellet couldn't be my staple food.