new tank , new axie, 2 weeks wont eat,near end

2 weeks ago we got 2 axotls and put them in a 60L tank with the water supplied by the aqaurium
(what a disaster), One of them died after few days. we had the water tested and it was the max for ammonia. we did several water daily water changes about 30% (with dechorlinated water), but it did not help. we then went to another aquarium got some more water (they showed it had low amonia by testing), put it in, (about 1/2) and topped up with dechlorinated water. put double doses of the bacteria stuff, and continued to do about 15l daily water changes..... This has achieved nothing the ammonia is back.

I have read on the net about cycling a tank, that it takes about 4-6 weeks , to get some amonia, then the bacteria that eats the ammonia but creates nitrite, then the bacteria that eats the nitrite and turns it to nitrate, at which time the tank reaches some kind of equilibrium,, during this process a spike then drop in ammonia is to be expected (enough to kill the axolotl i guess)., I think we should have doneHi all,
2 this before putting them in the tank., the remaining axolotl has never eaten in the 2 weeks, he is still a bit active, but is getting skinny.,, i am thinking of keeping him in a bucket of dechlorinated water (which wont have amonia, and changing daily to see if he will eat), while this cycle thing happens.
I have read a lot of contratictory stuff on the net for and against the use of bacteria.. (and how it destabilizes the tank, and extends the tank cylcle time),,,,, mean while my new boy (blackie) is starving to death and getting hurt by this ammonia,,, any ideas please,, hes cant go on much longer without eating i think,, I also get told contradictory stuff about adding salt, Live in Sydney Australia with soft water,,,,,,, finally if I'm in the wrong part of the forum could someone tell me

looking forward to a some feedback ASAP
max

Hi max,

sorry to hear about your troubles with your new axies . Pet stores often give bad advice unfortunately.

Anyway, with the bacteria you are using, what type is it? Most stuff in a bottle like Cycle won't do much to help a tank cycled. You can buy live bacteria that helps but its really not needed.

How come you are using water from an aquarium? I would be wary of the water as it could have come from a tank with disease in it. Generally, with anything (plants, fish, other axies) bought from an aquarium you should quarantine for 30 days.

With cycling, have you read this article? http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cyclingEDK.shtml Might help a bit more to explain the process. Anyway, keeping your axie in a bucket of fresh water each day sounds like a good idea if you are worried about ammonia hurting your axie. Just make sure the temperature of the bucket is fine (under 20C ideally and never over 24C). Anyway if you are doing this, you can let the tank cycle on its own. The link above will give detailed explanations of how to cycle and how to tell when it is cycled (ammonia reads 0). Many people have managed to cycle their tank with their axie in it. But it means you have to check ammonia daily and do 20% water changes when the ammonia reads over 0.

Adding salt is not necessary so don't worry about that. If you have soft water make sure to measure the PH to ensure it is not too low (should be between 6.5-8).

Finally, two weeks is not a long time to go without food for an axie. Just hang in there, make sure the water is ok and keep offering food and it should start eating once all the stressors are fixed. What type of food are you offering also? Basically if the food is unfamiliar an axie might take a while for it to eat it also.

Don't use anything that the petshop advises to use in your tank. The only thing you need is a water dechlorinater/ager/conditioner to remove the chlorines and chloramines from tapwater. So do not add ammonia removers, pH up or downs, nitrite/ate absorbers, cycle or anything else (especially not aquarium water) to your tank.

Never use aquarium water as chances are, as Sarah says, because they get many fish/other creatures/plants in they may not necessarily quarantine them and the water could contaminated (which could have contributed to your axies death).

As for pH, do not adjust it at all if the levels are below 6.5 or above 8, until after your tank has cycled/settled. The most important things to test for during cycling are ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Keep a notebook by the tank and record the tests once or twice a week, depending on when you test it, so you have an idea of what is happening and how far along you are in cycling.

No need to do waterchanges on your tank if you intend keeping your axolotl separate. You can chuck the water from your axie bucket (and any poo) directly into the tank.

The only bacteria which works in helping to cycle a tank is called Biospira, which is not available in NZ and most probably not in Australia. This one works as it is live bacteria and is kept in the fridge to keep it alive. Any other so called good bacteria to help you cycle (marketed under names like Cycle) are useless, they are kept on the shelf and are dead bacteria so really won't aid at all apart from adding to ammonia source.

Despite what you did after your first axie died - by using

1) more aquarium water; and
2) double dosing the cycle product; as well as
3) having one axolotl in the tank; combined with
4) a tank with rising temperature (which you haven't mentioned), then

of course you would have had a continually rising ammonia source in your tank, despite constant partial waterchanges.

Your tank was trying to cycle so naturally there would have been ammonia - you were increasing ammonia load. Frequent partial waterchanges will never really clear the ammonia; but it will keep it low enough for your axie to reside in it as long as you're also monitoring temperature and not overfeeding or leaving excess uneaten food/waste in the tank and doing the frequent partial waterchanges.

Cycling can take from 3-10.5 weeks (with or without animals in it and on varying size tanks). It takes time and patience. You may be lucky because of the temperatures and it may cycle quicker.

Most important things then are: Tank temperature (or bucket temperature) - has to be kept lower than 20C. If you can't keep the temperature then consider putting your axolotl in the fridge or in a smaller container and in an esky with icepacks surrounding it (but wrap the icepacks so they don't chill the container too fast). Change the water daily. Offer food daily. Remove any uneaten food within a couple of hours.

Invest in a turkey baster if you don't have one, these become handy little spot cleaners when you spot poo/uneaten meat or some other type of waste in the tank or bucket.

What substrate do you have in the tank and what dimensions are the tank?

If you do intend getting another axolotl at some stage, it has to be quarantined separately for minimum of 30 days to ensure it's healthy and won't make your current one sick.

Salt can be used in saltbaths when there are fungal infections. It can also be used in the tank, but at this stage the more important thing is to sort out your tank cycling.

Other than that.

Welcome to the forum, and don't worry if ever your thread/post is in the wrong area a moderator will move it to the correct place. I've moved this thread to the Beginner's part of the forum.

1stly I would like to thank you both for your quick replies, (Sarah and Kapo) I just went to the local aqarium who tested the water again, and found .5 i think of amonia (the light green colour), then shopping at bunnings, came back, and there are the replies.

I have now brought a nitrite and amonia testing kit. An aquarium enthusiast at the shop insisted the answer was to use some filter material from the aquarium shop to kick start the process and small water changes, the tank is 60litres
hight: 35cm
horizontal : 60cm
deep: 32cm

the gap from the top of the water to the top of the tank is 7cm


My thinking is to Alternate him between 2 buckets of water (each having 24 hrs for the chlorine solution to work),, (assumming hes ok for a day amonia wise in a bucket), this would allow him to be free of ammonia, and maybe he will eat. This assumes that the amonia would not build up (too much), in 24hrs.
I just measured the water at 26c.
i m ight get back to you on that because i dont think thats right, but will buy a new thermometer tomorrow, I will post a pic of the tank

pic of the tank, thanks guys

http://i250.photobucket.com/albums/gg273/max8454/29122007207.jpg

What did the aquarium owner mean by 'filter material'? In the pic, it shows you have a filter so a bit confused about that...

Also, if your temperature is correct, then that is much too high for an axie (and could also explain why it is not eating). Try to get it under 20C. A good way to do this is to freeze bottles of dechlorinated water and leave them in the tank, rotating when they melt.

Is your substrate gravel? I can't tell from the picture. If you are using gravel then you need to remove this asap as if your axie eats it, it can cause impaction. You can use sand or a bare floor. They are easier to maintain and much safer for your axie!

hi,
looking at your picture you are using a cascade filter and gravel, both of these things can cause problems for your axie.
firstly as was stated in the previous reply gravel can bung your axie up and even cause death, sand or bare floor are best and easier to clean waste from as it is easier to spot.
secondly, fast flowing water causes stress which can lead to a lowered immune system which will eventually lead to illness.
if you are unable to replace your filter at this time try deflecting the flow, thiscan be done by directing it against the glass and or placing plants by the return.
also temp definately needs to be brought down, i would seriously consider fridging your axie until you are able to maintain a lower temp in his tank.
good luck

repy re temp and gravel& water filter

Hi again
I will increase the level of the water so there is less disturbance to the water, no probs and make a vid and put it on utube for an opinion, the material was the filter material that so in the filter now are small rocks, a carbon filter, a sponge that collects amonia, and the filter material (sponge) from the shop that should have the bacteria.

we got that size gravel specifically so he wont eat it, also i was read the gravel holds the bacteria (and only to clean stuff on the top).

the water temp could be an issue, but its only tap water I'll work on that, by freezing some of the dechlorinated water and putting it in too, thanks for the tip

im afraid i will have to say who ever let you believe any gravel is safe for axies has misled you.
when your axie starts to eat he will snuffle at the substrate and inevitabley ingest some, they all do we just dont always see it, it can take a long while for it to build up in his system but it will eventually and cause him great hrm.
there are several threads on this forum from people who, like you believed it was ok until several months or even years later found out differently.
if i remember rightly Kapo aquired axies that were still pooing it out 18 months later. so please do reconsider.
anything that is capable of fitting in their mouths is to small and as you know when they open their mouths they are huge.

ok, I'll get rid of it (tomorrow)

this is it now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs3IyNgKgPM

Yes our axies still occasionally poo out gravel; coming up to almost 2 years now (from a few mm but thankfully haven't seen the larger stuff - just over 2cm in size - since one of our axies died trying to poo it out - she had a prolapse (bubble sticking out of the bum region and half the glass pebble protruding).

Bacteria will grow on any surface (tank glass/gravel/sand/decos/filter media).

HOB/Waterfall filters can be dispersed by placing something beneath the outlet (or tying something like plastic plants - or some other improvisation beneath it so it cushions it a bit). We used to have a small internal filter on our one of our tanks that had an incredibly fast current (advised to buy it by the petshop) and our poor juvies would end up fighting the current and get stressed. They eventually just stayed towards the other end of the tank till we removed it. Never tried the HOB/Waterfall ones as a few of our friends (that have fish) that had these found they leaked down the outside back of the tanks (not sure what brand it was). Other people have had no problems with the HOB but they buffer the outflow, plus as far as I know they don't heat the tankwater like an internal filter does. It's a bit hard trying to get good advice from petshops about good filters for amphibians - they'll just try and sell you anything that they think will suit a fish.

Another idea is if you permanently silicon a thin layer of gravel (or sand down) on the tank floor (you'd obviously have to empty the tank of water). and then let it cure. This would avoid the issue of gravel ingestion as well as provide a more asthetically pleasing look for one's tank (if one doesn't like bare tank floors).

We have both bare tank floors and sand tank floors. Sand has to be regularly stirred/siphoned so that anaerobic gas doesn't build up in pockets of sand and cause a water quality problem.

As for tank size, you'll find that that size is adequate for 2 axolotls if they're juvenile (under 15cm); but as they reach adulthood/maturity that will be really cramped. Our younger adult axolotls are 30-32cm+ in length and one in a 2fter is just enough. Two adults in a 2foot long tank would increase both the ammonia and be too cramped - they need space and hides (either more plants or another place they can hide away.

Consider moving your tank away from the window (it looks like it is placed by one from the angle of the shot). Direct light/sunlight warms up the tank. It's okay to be in a room of light but move it across the room from the window/lamp.

If you can keep the bucket/container cool (leave a thermometer in the water) then just transfer it from one bucket of dechlorinated water to the other is fine. We tend to do our waterchange buckets overnight or a couple of days ahead (we have several tanks to change weekly).

If you do keep your axolotl in the tank, or when you put him/her back then make sure you partially cover the tank (it seems a bit open) or add some more hides/caves or plants , as axies are nocturnal creatures so you might find she tends to go to the darker/sheltered area of the tank.

When you cool the tank down with the ice bottles you can also use polystyrene round the sides and back of the tank this will help keep the tank cooler longer; as well as a pedestal fan blowing across the surface of the tankwater.

after adding water

I have put another bucket of dechlorinated water in, I will freeze some more and put it in tomorrow,

I can raise the level of the water to just below the filter so there wont be much disturbance to the water, here it is now.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WbR6lj64Sk
Once again I would like to thank everybody for their help, and i'll remove the gravel too

have a good night all

Also, you should think about adding more hides to your tank. These can be in the form of clay pots, or inverted cups, or all sorts of things. The more hides, the better. You can also try adding live plants, to add vertical interest.

Hi Max

We have the cascading filter in one of our tanks as well. We cut an icecream lid, making sure of no sharp edges and then clipped it onto the outlet. The bottom of this plastic lip touches the water, we also have the flow on the lowest it can go. We also have an airfilter tube that runs along the back of the tank. This to is not on high.

We also a submersed filter with the water flow low and aimed at the wall of the tank for our adult axies. We have never had a problem with this. I would also like to suggest to change the small gravel to sand. My axies got very stressed on a bare floor, but love the sand.

Good luck with your set up.

Sharron

the new year, update

Hi all,

I put the axolotl in a bucket of water (when ever i say a bucket of water it means its been dechlorinated)

i left it there over night, in the morning it was all cloudy from what i dont know. but put him in another bucket this morning. I think hes more active (for a guy who has not eaten for 2.5 weeks) the water temp was 25 got it down to 20 using a bottle of frozen water.

Is the rate of change an issue, as it went down in 30mins,, can it cause shock of some kind.

did a amonia test on the tank, got a 1.0 (but i did deliberate between 1 - 2) seemed in the middle to me.,, will do another test in 2 days 3/1/2008,, when should i do the nitrite test?

still not eating
thanks
Max

The axolotl would be better off in the tank than in the bucket. You are having big temperature changes and water quality changes in the bucket. The swings up and down in temperature are hard on the axolotl. You need to figure out how to keep the tank cool. If you still have the air stone in take it out. You don't need the extra water circulation. Good biological filtration is more important than lots of water circulation. Keep working on cycling the tank. Partial water changes will be better than craming the axolotl in the bucket. The gravel should go. You can blow a fan over the tank to lower temp a little.

Live foods like earthworms, blackworms, bloodworms, etc. might entice the axolotl to eat. I think your biggest problem is high temperature.

Hey Max,

I wouldn't worry too much mate. I had the same problem as you from the very beginning, everything was fine for the first week and then all of the sudden I had this massive ammonia spike- <8.0ppm! I seriously thought that my axolotl was going to succumb to disease and die but that didn't happen (thanks to this site of course). Just to ease your mind a little, I used Cycle as well but I went ahead and did one step worse...I added Ammolock too! Anyway, I performed the biggest water changes. Around 50% every day until I got the ammonia level down to around 1.0ppm then I did 20% water changes there onwards until it was down to 0ppm.
As for cooling, well I've got two 15cm desk fans pointing over the surface of the water and I also have a clip-on aquarium cooling fan that I purchased on Ebay- very handy. Just for back up I also use frozen dechlorinated ice bottles. I have about 10 lined up in the freezer.
I noticed in your youtube that you have a KH test kit. I wouldn't worry too much about testing this, but I do believe a GH test kit is included, this is much more important. You mentioned that your water is soft I would recommend increasing the hardness now with conditioner but remember to the follow instructions carefully because if you do manage to overdose, you will have what is called "liquid-rock" as tank water. The hardness of your water is especially important because you are already having difficult with water temperature and parameters so by adding ions (from conditioner) to your tank is the best line of defense for fighting off any diseases.

Best of luck!

Jay.

I wouldn't consider hardness a big priority at the moment - the main thing is the temperature and watching ammonia levels.

What is the conditioner you are talking about Kal El? If it is chemical based I wouldn't recommend using something like that as it is better to use natural means to adjust hardness, as anything chemical based is likely to lead to instability in your water parameters as adjusting hardness is very fiddly. I have soft tap water but as I do frequent water changes my PH is steady so I don't ever test for hardness. However, if you want to raise it, one way you can raise kh is to add calcium carbonate (which can be crushed limestone or shell grit) into your filter or for Gh I think you add marine salts but not that sure if that is the best method for GH. Also I was wondering why GH is more important to test for than KH? I always thought it was the other way around as Kh is what affects your PH? So interested to know why GH is more important

But anyway, don't think it is a huge concern for max8454 at the moment. Hardness is more a long term consideration...

Conditioners contain specific ionic compounds such as magnesium sulphate, sodium chloride, calcium sulphate, iron sulphate, sodium bicarbonate (which will raise pH, therefore you do not need to use limestone or shell grit but that's your choice of course) and more- just read the packaging. Never purchase a conditioner that does not specifically state its ingredients. KH relates to calcium cabronate which isn't as important because it is only montinering one ionic compounds (and it does relate more to marine fish) whereas GH (general hardness) gives you an idea of the amount of dissolved (and even dissociated) ions within your tank water. You can also check the amount of dissolved ions in your water by doing a conductivity test. This will not tell you exactly what ions are present in your tank but it will give you a rough idea of how much dissolved ions are present (i.e. the greater the conductivity, the more ions are presents). However, I would approach this method with grave caution. Saspotato, I say that GH is really important because of an article I read in the Ambystoma Genetic Stock Centre webpage:

"Water is the most important component of the axolotls' environment. Never house them in extremely soft or distilled water. They need hard water to help them maintain the integrity of their skin, their most important defense against infection. Remove any chlorine, chloramines, or ammonia that may have been added as part of municipal water treatment. Commercial preparations (e.g., Amquel ) are available for this purpose. We pass our water through an exchange resin to remove heavy metals and past a sterilizing UV light as well. We also add salts to the water to make a modified Holtfreter’s solution. The recipe we use to make 40% Holtfreter's in a 44 gallon barrel is:

KCl: 1 teaspoon CaCl2: 2.5 teaspoons MgSO4.7H2O: 2 tablespoons NaCl: 240 ml (dry but measured in a liquid beaker)
The salts restore hardness after water treatment and help us maintain the animals' health by discouraging parasites and fungus. Extra salts are not essential, however, if you are attentive to good husbandry practices and the water is hard and free of chemicals and heavy metals. Keep the pH between about 6.5 and 8. If pH is at the high end of this range, monitor ammonia carefully because its toxicity will be greater than at neutral pH."

Note that all of the ionic compounds that I mentioned should be in the conditioner are also present in Holtfreter's solution. That being KCl (potassium chloride), CaCl2 (calcium chloride), MgSO4 (magnesium sulphate), NaCl (sodium chloride).


http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/guide.htm

Jay.

i don't know if it helps much, but in the fish world, we just use tap water, dechlorinate it with a chemical, something maybe by Tetrafin works great and let it cycle itself. I like to stick a few goldfish in my water to let them mess it up a bunch first before i put in my fish and i always use cultured gravel (sand in this case)


Your problem probably came from the aquarium water, i had that trouble once when buying a large quantity of fish from a local fish store, i just emptied all the water from the bags into my tank, WOW did it mess up my whole system, see, their parameters (like the amount of salt and such that they add to their water) are set up for a much larger quantity then the small aquarium i was housing. So it's not made to be used in small amounts, see?


think about sticking some feeder fish in the tank, or goldfish and have them cycle the tank for a week for you and get it all balanced out