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Toad tadpoles-good or bad-for food?

jbherpin

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Does anyone advocate toad tads for prey items for aquatic newt/sal species? The reason I ask is their are thousands of puddles that have thousands of toad tads that dry up before they even metamorph. Is it wrong to take from a population 6 out of 1000 to feed to my captives? I have fed them before, accidentally, and they absolutely relish them. Maybe it's wrong...?:confused:
 

jbherpin

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I would suggest you be fair and raise a few of them to adults, I haven't seen many toads in a while.

You are right, and I raise tads every spring and release them when metamorphed and feeding regular. I just think they are a nice seasonal variation in the diet, not a "feed three times a week" scenario. Great point made, I agree 100%!
 

Kaysie

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Are you appropriately quarantining animals for release from any other herptiles? Are you aware that even most zoos do not have the means to provide appropriate quarantine setups for re-release? If you keep ANY other herps, you run the risk of introducing foreign pathogens to wild populations. This can have devastating consequences: chytrid, ranavirus, iridovirus, etc. And are you aware that in many states, raising animals for rerelease is actually illegal.
 

jbherpin

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Are you appropriately quarantining animals for release from any other herptiles? Are you aware that even most zoos do not have the means to provide appropriate quarantine setups for re-release? If you keep ANY other herps, you run the risk of introducing foreign pathogens to wild populations. This can have devastating consequences: chytrid, ranavirus, iridovirus, etc. And are you aware that in many states, raising animals for rerelease is actually illegal.

You must take into note that I only release naturally occuring species, and housed with the objective of release with substantial feedings to say that this animal can hunt and feed independantly. My question was, "is it okay to feed toad tads" when a pop. is dense enough to find many thousands in seperate pools? I'm talking about 5 or 6 out of a thousand or more? Come on...?:mad:
 

Greatwtehunter

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I have feed my adult N. v. viridescens tadpoles during the spring for a number of years with no ill effects. My newts absolutely love them also. I see no problem in feeding them if your finding so many of them in a number of pools. So I say go for it.

Justin
 

Kaysie

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You must take into note that I only release naturally occuring species, and housed with the objective of release with substantial feedings to say that this animal can hunt and feed independantly.

Yeah, that's great. But are you insuring that there is no possible way they can come into contact with non-native species? Other caudates, other herps, cats that could have gone outside, spores from your shoes, feeding tongs from other animals, air vents in your house (or air vents from other apartments, if applicable), your clothes between rooms, the actual food itself, etc. All these things can transport pathogens. And if you introduce a foreign pathogen into a wild population, it doesn't matter your intentions or if the animals are feeding on their own. Foreign pathogens cause local extinctions.

That's not even to mention the legal matters. In many states, if you've taken an animal captive, no matter whether or not it's local, it is illegal to release it back into the wild. And if there are so many animals that you can harvest for food, why are you rereleasing them?
 

jbherpin

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Yeah, that's great. But are you insuring that there is no possible way they can come into contact with non-native species? Other caudates, other herps, cats that could have gone outside, spores from your shoes, feeding tongs from other animals, air vents in your house (or air vents from other apartments, if applicable), your clothes between rooms, the actual food itself, etc. All these things can transport pathogens. And if you introduce a foreign pathogen into a wild population, it doesn't matter your intentions or if the animals are feeding on their own. Foreign pathogens cause local extinctions.

That's not even to mention the legal matters. In many states, if you've taken an animal captive, no matter whether or not it's local, it is illegal to release it back into the wild. And if there are so many animals that you can harvest for food, why are you rereleasing them?

I don't care about legality, I just wanted to know how good a food item tads are! Why do you persist that I'm single-handedly destroying my native populations? I take offense to your constant snubbing of me and my questions/comments! If all you are going to do is focus on my threads negatively, please don't post!
 

jbherpin

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aren't some or all toad tadpoles poisonous? i know at least a few are.

I am not sure entirely...But I know that I have had newts feed on American/Fowlers toad tads with no problems. Toad tads tend to be jet black, making them both visible to the newts and for the keeper(to keep track of what's eaten)! They are also small enough for even 3-6" newt species. The species' that I have offered them to are Eastern, and Chinese Fire-Belly, but I'm sure many other species would love them as well!
 

Kaysie

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I'm merely pointing out that rereleasing captive animals can have catastrophic effects on wild populations. Species have gone extinct from introductions of pathogens. If you're keeping chinese firebelly newts, and bringing animals into your house, you have no way of ensuring the pathogens from the Cynops are not being transferred to wild animals, which you are then letting go into the wild. If you accidently introduce Chytrid, ranavirus, iridovirus, or some weird, undiscovered pathogen into the wild, you may very well have killed off every amphibian in the state. It has happened before.

Chytrid fungus has spread to every corner of the globe through people. And it may very well have gotten into the wild in the first place from people dumping African Xenopus frogs into waters after they were done using them for testing. Chytrid has surely been carried throughout Europe by Rana catesbiena. And in most places (for good reason), it is illegal. It is not a matter of me being 'mean'. As a moderator and wildlife biologist working for the federal government, it's my job to ensure legality and ethics are followed on this board and in real life as much as possible.

If you have a problem 'caring about legality', I see your life as a free individual being very short. It's the people who don't 'care about legality' that ruin the hobby for the rest of us. It is the people who don't 'care about legality' that cause imports to be cut off, that cause trading of individuals of an important species to illegal - even when it's the only means to their survival. It's people like don't 'care about legality' that kill off endangered species. "I don't care that it's endangered, I want it", or "I don't care if it's illegal, I'm going to keep my pet alligator in my bathtub and feed it hotdogs", or "I don't care if it's illegal, I'm going to poach hellbenders and sell them off as pets". Maybe you SHOULD care about legality, if not for yourself, then for the benefit of the other individuals on this planet.
 

jbherpin

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I'm merely pointing out that rereleasing captive animals can have catastrophic effects on wild populations. Species have gone extinct from introductions of pathogens. If you're keeping chinese firebelly newts, and bringing animals into your house, you have no way of ensuring the pathogens from the Cynops are not being transferred to wild animals, which you are then letting go into the wild. If you accidently introduce Chytrid, ranavirus, iridovirus, or some weird, undiscovered pathogen into the wild, you may very well have killed off every amphibian in the state. It has happened before.

Chytrid fungus has spread to every corner of the globe through people. And it may very well have gotten into the wild in the first place from people dumping African Xenopus frogs into waters after they were done using them for testing. Chytrid has surely been carried throughout Europe by Rana catesbiena. And in most places (for good reason), it is illegal. It is not a matter of me being 'mean'. As a moderator and wildlife biologist working for the federal government, it's my job to ensure legality and ethics are followed on this board and in real life as much as possible.

If you have a problem 'caring about legality', I see your life as a free individual being very short. It's the people who don't 'care about legality' that ruin the hobby for the rest of us. It is the people who don't 'care about legality' that cause imports to be cut off, that cause trading of individuals of an important species to illegal - even when it's the only means to their survival. It's people like don't 'care about legality' that kill off endangered species. "I don't care that it's endangered, I want it", or "I don't care if it's illegal, I'm going to keep my pet alligator in my bathtub and feed it hotdogs", or "I don't care if it's illegal, I'm going to poach hellbenders and sell them off as pets". Maybe you SHOULD care about legality, if not for yourself, then for the benefit of the other individuals on this planet.

I do care about my amphibians and long term survival, passionately even, but you are citing circumstances that involve non-native pathogens. Af. clawed frogs/alligators...I have no interest in bringing species to ares that they don't naturally exist. It would be careless and ignorant(and agreed-dangerous)to release animals in this way. I am not a fool, and know it is not ethical to do so. I only release native species and I don't believe that animals that live,feed,and in all other ways carry on seperately can have affect on each other? I don't use tongs, and I never handle them. They just have seperate lives in their respective enclosures.
 

Genome42

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"And it may very well have gotten into the wild in the first place from people dumping African Xenopus frogs into waters after they were done using them for testing"

As a scientist I must object at the wholly incorrect view which seems to be held by the general public that we do not care about animals and that we would 'dump them'. The use of animals in research is carefully regulated and all people working with animals (from zebrafish to primates) must have a license (This is the case in th UK and I presume the same is true in the US). Animals bred and used for research are better cared for then most animals kept as pets. The spread of pathogens may be by Xenopus but probably due to people who bought them as pets then got bored!

I do however agree that toads raised in the presence of other caudates who may be carriers of fungal or other pathogens may allow the transferal of these pathogens into wild populations. I would therefore suggest that breeding for re-release is not advisable if you also keep other caudates. If these tadpoles are plentiful however I see no problem in removing some as a food source but it is also possible that wild pathogens/parasites may infect your captive caudates.
 
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Abrahm

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I don't mean to harp on you, jbherpin, but Kaysie and Niki raise important points that you should really consider.

You have wild caught exotic specimens in your collection in your Chinese fire belly newts. These newts went through wholesale facility and were more than likely exposed to many, many other amphibians, including some that were infected with deadly diseases including chytrid and the viruses Kaysie mentioned. Due to the very nature of these diseases your animals could very well be carriers. These diseases can have latent stages or be asymptomatic in your animals.

Raising native animals in your house means they are relatively close to these possible disease sources. Water aerosolized by filter equipment in your tank could cause the spread of viruses, not to mention dirty hands and frozen, dried or live commercial foods. Chytrid spores can live for weeks in water and just using the same damp bucket in each tank could transfer the disease. The animals living near each other just increases the risk by providing more opportunities.

It is distressing to see puddles full of tadpoles drying up but that is part of the Bufo strategy. They use small bodies of water and high density in the hopes that some of the young will survive. A single female toad can lay a thousand eggs or more. If you really want to help your local amphibians survive don't collect the larvae to raise and release but help provide suitable habitat. Take a look at TreeWalkers International and their Operation: Frog pond.

Laws against the release of animals were put into place for a reason. They are one of the good environmental laws on the books.
 

Kaysie

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As a scientist I must object at the wholly incorrect view which seems to be held by the general public that we do not care about animals and that we would 'dump them'.

This is absolutely true. But it wasn't in years past. Xenopus were often used in pregnancy testing, and when they were done, the frogs (or even just their waste water) was dumped outside. I didn't mean to leave a negative connotation about animal testing or the scientists that participate.
 

jbherpin

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I appreciate everyone's input and am thankful to have a community like this to be informed and educated by. I do want to clear up any misunderstandings: I released a two green frogs two years ago, a wood frog last year, and a wood frog this year. This is all that I have done. I did not know however that serious risk is run when housing closely. I assumed seperate tanks solved these problems. Thank you all for clearing up my misunderstandings!;) Lastly, these species live in my locality.
 

Kaysie

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You DID say that you raise tadpoles every year and release at metamorphosis. Those species might be local, but other species you have might not (CHINESE firebelly newts, for instance). And therein lies the issue. If you kept only local species, it wouldn't be (as much) a problem. But it is still a REALLY REALLY bad idea to rerelease animals, regardless of whether or not they're local.
 

jbherpin

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You DID say that you raise tadpoles every year and release at metamorphosis. Those species might be local, but other species you have might not (CHINESE firebelly newts, for instance). And therein lies the issue. If you kept only local species, it wouldn't be (as much) a problem. But it is still a REALLY REALLY bad idea to rerelease animals, regardless of whether or not they're local.

Point taken and noted. I know you are right, just didn't think I was jeopardizing my local populations before. I don't think you ever reponded to my thread's real question...What do you think?:confused:
 

Kaysie

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Eastern newts happily eat tadpoles. If there are enough in your local population, collecting some as food won't harm them.

However, keep in mind that they may not be appropriate for other species which have not evolved eating these toads. They are toxic, and could poison other species.
 

fishkeeper

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And, of course, the wild tadpoles could bring diseases/parasites to your caudates.

That being said, newts do love frog/toad tadpoles and they are a natural food item, especially during breeding season. Check on a thread in the live foods section involving the possiblity of raising them for your own use.
 
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