Watson Tiger Sal. Update.

pepper · Nov 24, 2008

Omg...remember this tiny little guy!? No exciting color or nothing..skin and bones..

Now look at him!!! It's only been a few weeks! He's a tad chunky in these pics cause he just got done eating.

No he isn't in an aquatic set up, it's fully terrestrial with a little shallow water dish with gravel to soak in and he decided to hop in there to eat the crickets I was giving him.

He's become so tame in these last few weeks, he recognizes my tap on the side of his tub as food time and runs out to take food, I still try not to hold him, not good for them and all, but he has calmed down a lot and doesn't try to leap off of my hand immediately when I do hold him for a few split seconds!

madeve · Nov 24, 2008

He looks really great, love how he poses on that second picture.

Jan · Nov 25, 2008

Well done and on his way to becoming the next Bob!

Kaysie · Nov 25, 2008

He's got some big shoes to fill, measuring up to Bob.

Watson's looking lovely. Glad you stuck with it!

John · Nov 25, 2008

That's quite an impressive transformation. Looks a little too plump now. Are you sure Watson is a he?

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

looks nice, sorta female-ish.
Is that one of those barred hybrids that are outcompeting pure barreds in their range?
looks like one.

it ALSO looks like a possible chimera, notice the lateral inconsistency in pattern.

I was saying before how I think chimerism is probably more common than we think, but harder to see unless one
of the sets of genes is of a unique morph, such as when different morphs of axolotls are crossed and happens to have 2 eggs conjoin from different genetic configurations.

maybe....

John · Nov 25, 2008

featherbutt said:
looks nice, sorta female-ish.
Is that one of those barred hybrids that are outcompeting pure barreds in their range?
looks like one.

Looks like a normal barred to me. Most barreds are not copies of the colour photograph in Petranka's book.

featherbutt said:
it ALSO looks like a possible chimera, notice the lateral inconsistency in pattern.

Looks like all the tigers I've seen where the yellow/cream colour reaches the middle of the back. Does that mean they are all chimeras?

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

Hmm, I haven't seen that split effect very much. More often the patterns seem to flow across the center. Ive seen alot of tigers, not as many as you. No that doesn't mean they are chimeras, but how do we really know?

when is the difference enough for us to assume they are?

It occurred to me just now that a lateral break in pattern could also be the result of the caudal fin being absorbed. Perhaps initially the pattern (altough not pronounced in larvae) is incorporated into the fin, and then broken when the fin is gone.

maybe more reasonable than chimerism?

John · Nov 25, 2008

featherbutt said:
when is the difference enough for us to assume they are?

I think people are buying into that phenomenon a heck of a lot more than they should. The scientific answer is that we can never assume they are. I am still skeptical about the chimera that Daniel posted being natural.

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

Technically, science would argue that we do not assume either way unless we have taken measures to clarify through scientific process, which is impossible.

If that chimera was intentional, then I want one too, preferably with a horizontal split. Those bilaterally pied chimeras look like they have cancer.

IanF · Nov 25, 2008

That guy (or girl perhaps) looks exactly like my juvenile. I assumed it was tigrinum though since there is no obvious patterns or long barres but if that's a mavortium I would think it's the same.

John · Nov 25, 2008

featherbutt said:
Technically, science would argue that we do not assume either way unless we have taken measures to clarify through scientific process, which is impossible.

We know from empirical data that a chimera is not a likely occurrence. I think you're attributing the formation of the tissue over the neural crest as being something it's not.

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

So, we're not acknowledging my other suggestion, then, about the "the formation of the tissue over the neural crest" perhaps having to do with the caudal fin?
The chimera thing was just a suggestion, nothing more, I'm not looking to put forth a revolution of perceived chimerism, I already conceded that it could well be something else.
I think stating that most tigers express this pattern break phenomenon is an exaggeration, Is it ok for me to be skeptical too?
Just coming up with observations.

John · Nov 25, 2008

If I get a chance when I get home I'll take a look at all 5 of my barreds and let you know.

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

How related are they? (to each other)
It could be a trait peculiar to the genetic stock you have access to.
Or maybe its something that's more akin to barreds in general, But I've seen a lot of A. m. Melanostictums, A. m.diabolis, and A. Tigrinums
I just don't see that trait much, (tho admittedly diaboli don't lend themselves to elaborate pattern scrutiny)

If i do a Google image search for
"tiger salamander" I see page after page of nothing but smooth pattern transitions expressed in all subspecies.
Can it be that photographers and posters are THAT selective to avoid Photographing examples of the norm?

When I do see it tho, it tends to be more pronounced in the tail, which would support my assertion of a caudal fin relation.

John · Nov 25, 2008

3 of mine are related. The other 2 are not related to the first 3 and unlikely to be closely related to each other.

I can't answer your last question.

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

What do you think tho? Seems reasonable to me, and would certainly make a much better explanation than my (reachy) initial suggestion.

If one were culturing tigers, and one wanted a smooth pattern, perhaps morphing them in the juvenile stage would have a different result than morphing a neotenic adult. Or something.

might be worth knowing

John · Nov 25, 2008

I honestly don't know. And, not to be a pain, but can you please say though, not tho.

featherbutt · Nov 25, 2008

Oh, I'm sorry. I know you have that grammar, punctuation, and spelling thing.
I had even edited my posts for possible offenses more than I do with other forums.
I really do try to be considerate.
I must have missed "tho".

John · Nov 25, 2008

Thanks Mitch, it's appreciated.

Watson Tiger Sal. Update.

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