Question: Surface Area Per Axolotl

Hye guys,

My girlfriend has just gone out and bought a AquaOne UFO700 tank... Approx 300 litres/80 US gallons. We've taken photos of the whole project so I will have a journal up on here some time in the near future...

To get the brand new tank cycled, I've gone with a research project and used one green king prawn and seachem stability... In one week we have had our ammonia spike, now into our nitrite spike (readings 1ppm ammonia, 2ppm nitrite). The prawn isn't looking the best, but this is the fastest cycle I have ever done. Once the cycle is finished, I'll get into the rest of the testing...

She's after a pair of axolotl, so, the questions that follow on from that is:

The requirements given on axolotyl.org stipulate tank size rather than volume (the only extract i have seen says 10 gallons to 12 inches..). I'm assuming that is because they are floor dwellers, you want a large surface area rather than volume. Is this correct? If this is the case, what is the ideal surface area per axolotl? Can I assume from the information provided on axolotl.org I should be able to keep 8 adults in there without issue?

All a little confusing. I usually overpopulate and overfilter my water, but can't to that with axolotls because they don't like high flow rates...

aussieaxo said:

To get the brand new tank cycled, I've gone with a research project and used one green king prawn and seachem stability... In one week we have had our ammonia spike, now into our nitrite spike (readings 1ppm ammonia, 2ppm nitrite). The prawn isn't looking the best, but this is the fastest cycle I have ever done. Once the cycle is finished, I'll get into the rest of the testing...

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I would recommend you cease using chemical aids to cycle a tank, it's best to let the cycle happen naturally particuarly for axolotls.

Axolotls are highly senstive to chemicals as they breath in part through their skin - whatever is in the water ends up being absorbed into the axolotl and this can be deadly.

aussieaxo said:

I'm assuming that is because they are floor dwellers, you want a large surface area rather than volume. Is this correct?

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Surface area gives the axies room to wander around. Water volume is also important though as it helps dillute wastes and provides the axies with swimming space.

Young axolotls will be more active than adults. Adults spend much of their time doing as little as possible but do like to go for a wander around lol.

aussieaxo said:

If this is the case, what is the ideal surface area per axolotl?

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It's recommended to give each axolotl 18 inches of floor space.

Axolotls also require a lot of hides, you need at least two hides per axolotl to give them a choice and enable them to spend 'time out' from one another.

How have you "naturally" started the cycle on your tank?
Did you just fill your tank up and throw your axolotyls in?

I would assume not. You more than likely filled your tank, added chemicals to remove chlorine/chloramine, add in magnesium, stabilise pH, kH etc etc... So, not natural at all...

The method I have used has been widely accepted as the fastest and most reliable way of getting the aquarium cycled in the shortest time possible.

Seachem Stability provides a high concentration of beneficial bactieria as well as trace elements required for a healthy aquarium. All the prawn is doing is providing a decomposing body that would produce a large amount of ammonia for the bacteria to feed on...

As proven, the ammonia spike has taken 1 week instead of 3 weeks for cycles I have done on previous tanks... an obviously clear improvement.

All other tests are perfect, so I don't see your argument for a "natural" cycle, whatever you deem that to be...

Sorry if that sounded like an attack, but I've had plenty of experience in this space...

You have specifid 18" of floor space but we are not discussing a single plane of existance here... We are talking surface area, so dimensions would be handy. 18 x 14 is a lot different to 18 x 24... On a 2 foot high tank that's approx a 200 litre/50 gallon difference in total tank size...

Time to experiment. I'm suggesting to my better half to only have two full sized adults in the aquarium... We'll see how it goes from there.

Thanks for the reply but you didn't really answer the questions I had...

aussieaxo said:

How have you "naturally" started the cycle on your tank?
Did you just fill your tank up and throw your axolotyls in?

I would assume not. You more than likely filled your tank, added chemicals to remove chlorine/chloramine, add in magnesium, stabilise pH, kH etc etc... So, not natural at all...

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You assume wrong.

The only water conditioner I use is dechlorinator which removes chlorine and chloromine from my water rendering it safe for the axolotls.

Dechlorinator is essential to remove the chlorine and chloromine from the water before these chemicals kill both bacterias and the axolotls - this is the only part this chemical plays in the cycle. I use this because I must, not because I want to.

My first cycle took two months to complete and I cycled it naturally with the axolotls.

The other tanks took less time as I transferred ornaments and filter media from a cycled tank to the cycling tanks.

I never use pH adjusters or any other unneccessary chemical. As I said, axolotls are highly sensitive to chemicals so I avoid them.

aussieaxo said:

The method I have used has been widely accepted as the fastest and most reliable way of getting the aquarium cycled in the shortest time possible.

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Quite a bold statement. Widely accepted by whom?

aussieaxo said:

Seachem Stability provides a high concentration of beneficial bactieria as well as trace elements required for a healthy aquarium. All the prawn is doing is providing a decomposing body that would produce a large amount of ammonia for the bacteria to feed on...

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And what else is in the bottle? I've checked the Seachem website for information on this product, it states it is safe for fish and other aquatic life such as plants. No where does it say it is safe for amphibions, this would be a cause of concern if it were me.

You are free to ignore or heed the advice and experience on this forum - it's entirely up to you.

aussieaxo said:

As proven, the ammonia spike has taken 1 week instead of 3 weeks for cycles I have done on previous tanks... an obviously clear improvement.

All other tests are perfect, so I don't see your argument for a "natural" cycle, whatever you deem that to be...

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My argument for a 'natural cycle' is the establishment of natural beneficial bacteria with no chemical interference.

aussieaxo said:

Sorry if that sounded like an attack, but I've had plenty of experience in this space...

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This is an attack:

aussieaxo said:

Did you just fill your tank up and throw your axolotyls in?

Click to expand...

aussieaxo said:

You have specifid 18" of floor space but we are not discussing a single plane of existance here... We are talking surface area, so dimensions would be handy. 18 x 14 is a lot different to 18 x 24...

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You're nitpicking. It's recommended to give each axie 18 inches floor length and tanks come in many widths (the standard width is 12-14 inchs) so one just needs apply common sense.

aussieaxo said:

On a 2 foot high tank that's approx a 200 litre/50 gallon difference in total tank size.

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A two foot high tank will add water volume, not floor space.

For two axolotls a 300 litre will be more than sufficient. But for eight axolotls it depends on the length of the tank.

Hi, nice to meet you!

I think that Jacq answered your question pretty well. If you want dimensions then I would say that personally I use 18inches x 12 inches as a rough guide. Nothing is set in concrete, and we all believe that bigger is always better.

As for cycling your tank, what Jacq said is true. It is best not to add any chemicals because axolotls breathe through their skin. The only thing we add is a dechlorinater. What you do is up to you, however I would not have a go at someone just because you don't like what they say. Jacq merely had your axolotl's best interest at heart.

We only give advice here and what you do is totally up to you.

I hope you have fun with your axolotls. Take care

ADD: lol Jacq, you bet me!

I've only got the axolotls best interests in mind also...

So what you guys are telling me, I would have been better just throwing any living animal into conditions that are nowhere near their natural habitat? i.e. no beneficial bacteria for the breakdown of their wastes, incorrect water parameters etc...

This is like you moving into a house with no floor, no carpet and definately no toilet... Sure, you can do it, you've got a roof over your head and some doors, and the builders kinda cleaned the place up a little....but it's gonna be mighty uncomfortable for a while...

After raising discus for some time, I understand how much chemicals and other water parameters affect aquarium inhabitants.

But I also know that cycling a tank with a live animal is a cruel punishment that I could not honestly bring myself to do... New Tank Syndrome Kills Animals

aussieaxo said:

But I also know that cycling a tank with a live animal is a cruel punishment that I could not honestly bring myself to do... New Tank Syndrome Kills Animals

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That is your decision. However, we are not cruel to our animals. If we cycle a tank with an animal in it, we take whatever precautions nessecary to in sure it's health. We are cautious to make sure that the ammonia and nitirite levels do not become high enough to cause harm. Axolotls will generally let us know if they are stressed in any way and this gives us the chance to rectify the situation. While cycling a tank like this does take longer, it does work and if done properly with the right care taken, the axolotls will be fine.

As for 'new tank syndrome', I have owned axolotls for 8 years and have never had any problems cycling a tank with them in it.

If you wish to do a 'fishless' cycle, then that is your choice, however please do not criticise others for doing something which is also deemed to be acceptable by most. Like I said, we all have a choice, in this case there are two choices.

Hi Aussieaxo,

I agree that cycling a tank with a live animal can quickly become cruel to the animal. Keepers cycling in this way need to be extremely attentive and diligent in changing the water out each day. It is, indeed, far better to establish a working bacterial colony first, then add the axolotl. In my experience, adding the axolotl always brings more ammonia than I can prepare for, so there is usually at least a slight peak a couple of weeks after the "move-in", but I like to give a good head start if I can. Many people, though, do not have the luxury of (as in, a second aquarium) or patience for (as in, to prepare a tank before acquiring an animal) a fishless cycle.

To your method, I would say that the choice of a prawn was excellent and key. They decompose very quickly and as such are perfect for starting a cycle.

Starter or seeder bacteria is another thing; their efficacy is debatable. How do the bacteria survive in the little bottle? Particularly aerobic bacteria which, as their name suggests, require an supply of oxygen to survive. I suspect (in my vast biological wisdom... ) that starter bacteria is effectively foodstuffs (maybe dead bacteria?) attractive to specific bacteria. Bacteria are everywhere; cycling just means concentrating enough in our particular aquarium to handle the waste products. I would rather more think that adding starter bacteria is essentially the same as adding a dead prawn. Just more expensive.

To your original question, I never have been good at or comfortable with a set formula of tank length per axolotl length. Some people ask about the "minimum size necessary" and this question inherently bothers me. A minimum size for the simple survival of the animal would be an ice cream container or other such, something long and wide enough for the axolotl to sit inside without bending. This is what they use in laboratories. I have serious quality of life issues with that, though.

I prefer to recommend a tank that is at least 80 cm long, even for just one axololt. Two axolotls will also fit in this tank, especially with enough places to hide. My tanks are all 120x40x50 and "they say" that "with enough hides" these are technically big enough for up to 8 adult axolotls, although I would not have more than two or three in any of these tanks (I am a "more is more" kind of person), and the "enough places to hide" stipulation suggests to me that there must be a basic amount of stress involved in keeping so many animals in one place. Quality of life again.

Incidentally, you probably know this but just in case, you can provide more filtration of your tanks by providing more surface area - decorations, substrate, etc. If you use live plants, these will also actively contribute to removing salts. I only mention it in response to your comment that axolotls do not like much water flow.

Anyway, I hope this helps. It is commendable for anyone to look for information, and the different opinions on this site are one of the factors that makes this site so valuable to me. Long live information exchange!

-Eva

Hey,
I just thought I'd chime in - I've noticed a lot of people I've talked to in aquarium shops swear by this 'Stability' product. I have 3 tanks - one for african cichlids, one for axolotls and one for guppys. The cichlid and axie tank were established using a fishless cycle with no added chemicals, however I used the guppies to cycle the final tank. Because so many people recommended Stability I gave it a go with the guppy tank, mostly because I was worried about cycling it with the fish in there. I chose not to use it in the axolotl tank as well, because of how senstive axolotls are to chemicals. I don't know if it sped up the process or not, but my fish survived... my axolotls might not have.

I think an important thing to keep in mind is that even though axolotls are aquatic animals, they are most certainly not fish. You responded quite harshly to the advice Jacq gave you, I suspect because you are just doing what you have always done (and it certainly sounds like you know your stuff)... but axolotls are very different to any other aquatic animals we have in Australia. There are a million little things they don't like, and chemicals is one of them. The only reason anybody will suggest you not use them is to prevent any upsetting disasters. Of course it might not even be a problem, but why take the risk?

Good luck with your tank, it sounds like it is coming along nicely - I'm sure we would all love to see pictures once you have finished setting it up. :happy: