Illness/Sickness: Birth defects??

I have a total of 26 baby axolotls. They're probably about 2" long.

1) One of them is a white axolotl with black eyes (white melanoid) with no iridophores on his eyes or body. Apparently, this is a bit uncommon. His gills are WAY longer on one side of his head than they are on the other.



2) One of them is a wildtype. As a very young baby, he developed, for lack of a better word, "tail rot". Apparently, the baby brine shrimp that I'd been feeding them had fouled his water, and his tail deteriorated. This actually happened to THREE of my babies, but the other two are doing just fine, and one of the others' tail rot was FAR worse than his! This was a couple of months ago, and now that he's much larger, I'm noticing the following defects with him: A) His top tail fin seems to be flattened toward the end. I'm sure this is a result of his childhood tail rot. B) His hind legs are VERY TINY little stumps. They're barely visible. C) His front legs are very small as well, and there are no distinguishable fingers. His stubby little arms are in an "L" shape, bending where his "wrist" would be. I can't make out any elbows either. Help please?



All of my axolotl babies are housed completely separately from each other, so there is no nipping/biting going on.

HI Valeria,

I think your first larvae is a leucistic. A melanoid albino has pink eyes. Normally deelopment will be symmetrical however uneven gill lengths are not a pathology itself unless there is severe compromise to oxygen exchange, movement etc. It is more of a cosmetic issue. I would not be overly concerned. It is just different rates of growth. In some instances, the difference will gradually lessen as the axie grows older.

The wildtype axie may possess mutant genes for development or may be developing at a slower rate to the peer due to combination of genetics and environmental factors. Take a look at this limb staging chart. http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/limbstaging.htm as well as this list of mutant genes. http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/mutantslist.htm

Tail rot can be managed by good water chemistry control and nutrition. It should heal over. Take a look at this link for general health care of larvae. http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/why_larvae_die.shtml

Cheers.http://www.ambystoma.org/AGSC/mutantslist.htm

Ray to my rescue again!

Ray, do you remember my previous thread, http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=59562? In that thread, the baby axolotl in question was:



That's a baby picture of the white axolotl in this thread with the uneven gills. Same axolotl.

In that previous thread, you and I basically established that if it ends up displaying iridophores, then it's leucistic, and if it doesn't end up displaying iridophores, then it's a very light melanoid. Well, no iridiphores are apparent! So I do think it's a light melanoid. White coloration like this IS uncommon in a melanoid, correct?

As far as the wildtype axie, his limbs are definitely developing at a slower rate than the others. I think what disturbs me more than anything is the fact that I can't see any fingers. I remember when my babies were very young and first developing their front limbs, and their little fingers were very obvious in those early stages of development. This is apparent in the baby picture of the white axie. Even though he's so young in that pic, his fingers are very obvious. The wildtype's fingers should be obvious as well! I am expecting that the wildtype axie will grow up to have malformed limbs

Has anybody else encountered limb development like this??

Thanks, Ray!

Hi Valeria,

Yes unfortunately i do agree that there is a high likelihood that your wildtype axie will develop malformed limbs. In some cases, external malformations can also mean there are abberations/malformation in internal organ systems as well, and these axies tend to have ill thrift and cannot survive for long. If your axie just happens to have short limbs but otherwise normal, it can still make a good pet.

Well when we think of usual melanoids, there are either the pure jet black almost velvety looking black melanoid (black eyes) or the melanoid albino - scattering of yellow hints around head and back on a mainly white body (pink eyes). Any white axolotl with black eyes are not albino.

As we mentioned before iridosphores are crystal accumulations (usually from diet) so it takes some time for them to develop fully and be expressed. I still think your axie looks more leucistic, although it is still young and can be hard to determine at this stage. Usually a melanoid animal will quickly darken with melanophores and seldomly present with such minimal dorsum speckling.

http://www.axolotl.org/genetics.htm

Cheers

Thank you, Ray!

The wildtype seems to be thriving, aside from his malformed limbs. He has a good appetite, and his body is not any smaller than the bodies of my other juveniles. Poor thing. I was only planning on keeping one of my wildtypes for possible breeding, and I won't be breeding him, so hopefully there's someone out there who'll be willing to give him a good home.

The white one... you know a lot more about axolotls than I do, but I'd be willing to bet that he won't be displaying any iridophores! All of my other white axies have reflective eyes, and this one does not. They were all born November 6, so they're four months old now... isn't that long enough for iridophores to accumulate? I'm noticing reflective gills on my golden babies, so they're accumulating them very quickly! But this guy??? Regardless of anything, I think I'll be keeping him simply because I love his coloration. What's your opinion on breeding him, Ray? Do you think that he might pass down that gill assymetry to his offspring? If so, then he shouldn't be bred. I would have loved to breed him if it weren't for those gills, though. He's a beautiful axie. I'll post more pics of him once he's older. I guess we'll find out what he really is! If he IS a melanoid, then he is a strange one, right?

Firstly, the word is "larva" for a single individual and "larvae" for more than one. These are not interchangeable. Please try to be correct on things like this, otherwise it perpetuates the mistake in newcomers who think that because someone is labelled "Veterinarian" that everything they say is correct. I don't mean to cause offence, I am simply trying to nip this in the bud.

Regarding iridophores, these are visible in the eyes of axolotl larvae still in their egg sacs, so if they are not apparent when you shine a light at the eye, they never will be. If you only have 26 axolotls from the spawning then it is quite conceivable that you have a single leucistic melanoid, which is what that first axolotl appears to be.

Both of the larvae are exhibiting developmental problems which, given the state of axolotl genetic diversity in captivity, is more than likely the result of inbreeding over so many generations. This may sound cold but at the very least these two should be euthanised to prevent them adding to the gene pool in the future (if you ever give them away or sell them, etc, who knows what might happen). It would probably be more advisable to euthanise the entire batch and make sure that whoever bred them is informed to do the same thing. I know this may seem distasteful but I strongly advise at least euthanising the two deformed individuals for the good of the gene pool.

Hi all,

Apologies to everyone (and John). Yes vets do err too and its highly embarressing when it concerns basic singular and pleural terminologies. Sorry Valeria!

John is way more knowledgeable about axolotls and it makes perfect sense that what we see is a leucistic melanoid. At least now you can set your mind at ease Valeria.

I agree that the axies shouldn't be bred in future. However, i feel that if the axies are healthy otherwise, they could still be kept as pets, but on the condition they are not given away or sold. The one with the deformed limbs however is a suitable candidate for euthanasia im afraid. http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/euthanasia.shtml

Regards

A leucistic melanoid! Thank you, John! I was under the impression that leucistics could not be melanoid, so I've learned something new! So, is a leucistic melanoid an uncommon creature? There was a thread on this forum that someone had posted about an axolotl named Pirate. I'm sure you're all familiar with the thread. Pirate had some very unique coloration, and people were discussing possible chimerism. Pirate, too, had gills on one side of his head that were much longer than the gills on the other side of his head. I wonder if gill assymetry and uncommon coloration go hand in hand. This is, of course, assuming that a melanoid leucistic is uncommon. Is it?

The 26 babies that I have... they're all unrelated. So I will assume that the ones who aren't displaying any anomalies are safe to be bred.

As far as euthanasia, I just don't have the heart to do it. Ideally, some kind, responsible soul on these forums will offer to adopt the one with the bad limbs and agree not to breed him. If no one offers, then I guess I'll just keep him as a pet, and I'll make sure that he doesn't breed!

As far as the leucistic melanoid, I really wanted to breed him, so if his gills even out and become symmetrical as he reaches adulthood, then he should be fine to breed, right? It is possible that one side is just growing faster than the other, right? But as long as he's a good adult specimen, then he should be ok to breed, I would think.

Advise whoever bred them to euthanise the entire batch? Hahaha, I wish I could tell you who bred them and from where they came, because if I told you, you would understand that that would not be an option. I'll put it this way: I will not be surprised to see more axolotls with this limb problem in the future. I guarantee that my wildtype with the malformed limbs has siblings ALL OVER THE WORLD by this point. Sad.

Hi Velaria,

I know your question is directed specifically to John, but i thought i shall give you my opinions.

Firstly, the reason why John suggested euthanasia and not breeding from them is because the deformed axies are carrying genetic material that has a high chance of causing the same congenital defects in subsequent progeny.

To be honest, even the ones from the same batch (with same parents/related) with normal limb and gill development are carrying genetic material that has a high chance of causing deformities if bred from. The genotype (genetic coding) may still have the deformity traits despite outwardly normal phenotypes (what we see).

Even if your axie's gills do become more symmetrical as it ages, it doesn't change the genetic makeup. You really shouldn't be breeding from this axie.

The most responsible thing to do is to not rehome or breed from these axies if you don't intend to euthanise them. The worse thing you can do is to try to get it off your hands to someone else. I think it is very unfair to both the axie and to the new owner if you rehome it. You also can't guarantee the fate of the axie once its off your hands. You won't know if it is subsequently rehomed again etc.

I think we discussed about the genes governing the leucistic and melanoid characteristics. I think you have got them mixed. up. The leucistic axie is caused by a developmental gene whereas the melanoid axie is caused by pigmentation gene. They are independant of each other. So yes, a melanoid leucistic can occur. That said, i do think the melanoid leucistic is rarer.

Chimerism has nothing to do with melanoid or leucistic genes. It is a completely different scenario altogether. If you search the forums for the relevant threads, there are interesting discussions that would give you more insight.

Cheers.

Darkmaverick said:

Hi Velaria,

I know your question is directed specifically to John, but i thought i shall give you my opinions.

Firstly, the reason why John suggested euthanasia and not breeding from them is because the deformed axies are carrying genetic material that has a high chance of causing the same congenital defects in subsequent progeny.

To be honest, even the ones from the same batch (with same parents/related) with normal limb and gill development are carrying genetic material that has a high chance of causing deformities if bred from. The genotype (genetic coding) may still have the deformity traits despite outwardly normal phenotypes (what we see).

Even if your axie's gills do become more symmetrical as it ages, it doesn't change the genetic makeup. You really shouldn't be breeding from this axie.

The most responsible thing to do is to not rehome or breed from these axies if you don't intend to euthanise them. The worse thing you can do is to try to get it off your hands to someone else. I think it is very unfair to both the axie and to the new owner if you rehome it. You also can't guarantee the fate of the axie once its off your hands. You won't know if it is subsequently rehomed again etc.

I think we discussed about the genes governing the leucistic and melanoid characteristics. I think you have got them mixed. up. The leucistic axie is caused by a developmental gene whereas the melanoid axie is caused by pigmentation gene. They are independant of each other. So yes, a melanoid leucistic can occur. That said, i do think the melanoid leucistic is rarer.

Chimerism has nothing to do with melanoid or leucistic genes. It is a completely different scenario altogether. If you search the forums for the relevant threads, there are interesting discussions that would give you more insight.

Cheers.

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Thanks, Ray! I had actually directed most of my questions to whomever was kind enough to answer them. Yes, I totally understand why John suggested euthanasia. I would not want any bad genes to be passed on. All I'm saying is that I'm certain that my wildtype with the malformed limbs already has many siblings all over the world, so it makes sense that this defect will likely become apparent in other axolotls in the future.

As far as finding a new home for the wildtype, I would only rehome it with a responsible, well-established member of the axolotl community who would know better than to allow it to breed.

And Ray, I'm very sorry if I offend you by pointing this out, because I am so thankful for all of your help, but here is what you wrote on that other thread that I posted about sexing my adult axolotls: " Leucistics are d/d (recessive for the wildtype colour hence appearing as white) but they are non melanoid, non axanthic and non albino."

Your statement would mean that leucistics can't be melanoid, but I guess we've now established that they can be melanoid

Hi Velaria,

From my understanding, the typical (common) leucistic axolotl is still able to produce melanophores, xanthophores and iridosphores. Therefore normal pigment cells are produced, but they never migrate off the neural crest of the embryonic animal, resulting in the white phenotype due to the recessive developmental gene (d/d). Hence the phenotype is d/d, non-melanoid, non-albino and non-axanthic.

In rarer cases like melanoid leucistics, i suppose besides possessing the d/d gene, it also possesses the m/m recessive gene, such that iridosphores are not expressed. Take a look at this link http://www.axolotl.org/genetics.htm

You will see that in general leuctics are d/d, non-melanoid, non-albino and non-axanthic. John is the author of that axolotl guide, and also discusses the genetics of leucistics and melanoids. Perrhaps you might like to ask John about the more advanced genetics aspects? I am afraid it is out of my league.

Cheers.

Thanks, Rayson!

Well, then I'm going to assume that a melanoid leucistic is a rare type of axie

Velaria said:

Advise whoever bred them to euthanise the entire batch? Hahaha, I wish I could tell you who bred them and from where they came, because if I told you, you would understand that that would not be an option. I'll put it this way: I will not be surprised to see more axolotls with this limb problem in the future. I guarantee that my wildtype with the malformed limbs has siblings ALL OVER THE WORLD by this point. Sad.

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That sounds like an aweful situation. If the breeder seems like that type that would not care and would not stop distributing genetically messed up babies, then you should never ever have bought anything from them in the first place, because it encourages that type of carelessness. If I found out that axies I had distributed carried some sort of malformation, I would pay those people to send the individuals back to me to be euthanized, and would give them each a healthy one from a different breeding couple, or else refund their original payment. To knowingly spread harmful genes, especially within an endangered species, is not ok.

That said, I would still be interested to see if those gills or those limbs grew to be normal. I know you said each individual was in their own container by the time you noticed this, but I'm still wondering whether those parts could have been nipped off before they were separated, and are maybe in the process of regenerating? You mentioned seeing if they things grow back by the time they are adults, but that is too long. If they don't have these parts back within a month or two, then they at the very least have a genetic problem stopping them from regenerating at the rate they should, and I would seriously recommend keeping them out of the gene pool.

Velaria said:

Thanks, Rayson!

Well, then I'm going to assume that a melanoid leucistic is a rare type of axie

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Nope. It's just about half as common as being one or the other, because they are two genes that act independently of each other. It's like a person having blonde hair and being good with math. One doesn't make the other any less probable.