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Warty Newts (Paramesotriton & Laotriton) & Paddletail Newts (Pachytriton Often sold incorrectly as Japanese fire-bellied newts, these territorial newts are distinct from other genera and very interesting in their own right.


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Old 9th April 2009   #1
crazyfishlady
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Red face Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I purchased these both at the same time from the same tank and I'm just wondering if they're both Pachytriton labiatus. Newt "A" looks like the typical textbook picture but, I'm not so sure about Newt "B". The skin isn't as smooth on Newt "B" and it's a bit discolored.

Also, I was wondering if the newts shed their skin for the rest of their life or is it until they stop growing? Would it be beneficial to add liquid calcium or should they receive enough Calcium from the chopped nightcrawlers? It may seem like a dumb question to the reptile experts but, I'm just curious as to why the newts need to shed their skin? Are the Axolotls able to stretch their skin is that why they don't shed?

Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Thank you!

Here come the pictures:

NEWT "A"
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
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NEWT "B"
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Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 9th April 2009   #2
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

There both the same species.



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Old 9th April 2009   #3
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I think Newt A looks more like a Chinese Fire Belly Newt (Cynops orientalis)
http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Cy...ientalis.shtml <That's the species entry. I have a Chinese Fire Belly and he looks just like that. I could be wrong though.



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Old 9th April 2009   #4
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 454 View Post
There both the same species.
Well that was direct and to the point, thank you. I'm still curious about the skin shedding. If anyone had any further information to add that would be wonderful!

Hey Nick, thanks for your opinion I will look into that but, I think the tail on Newt "A" may be more like a paddletail let me see if I can find a better picture. Here, take a look the skin looks a little more brown as well vs. the black of the CFB and it's very smooth.

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Old 9th April 2009   #5
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

No, these are most defenetley Pachytriton labiatus or commonly called the "Paddletail Newt" http://www.caudata.org/cc/species/Pa...hytriton.shtml. Cynops orientalis are much smaller in size, much darker usually with the markings on the belly much more apparent and a more angular tail. You can tell by the very compressed tail, the markings and the large flattened head that both of these newts are definetley both Paddle Tails.



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Old 9th April 2009   #6
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I second Socrates.



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Old 9th April 2009   #7
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Definitely Pachytriton, both of them. NOT C.orientalis....
However wether they are both P.labiatus is unsure.
The genus is a mess of lots of different variants, proper identification is complicated.
P.labiatus as a species, also has different varieties, and the taxonomic status of those variants is not very clear. They are most likely P.labiatus, but they are also likely to be two different variants.

Skin shedding happens for more reasons than just growth. Skin infections, stress, bad water conditions, wounds, can also make a newt shed(they can also increase the frequency of shedding).
Skin shedding is a quality acquired with metamorphosis. Larvae donīt shed, but metamorphs, juvies and adults do. Aquatic bound amphibians(larvae, neotenic species...) do not require changes in their skin qualities through their lifes, but morphed animals, which become typically terrestrial(at least for some period of time) do need a completely different type of skin, one that comes with the capability of being shed.
Axolotls are neotenic, retaining larval characteristics, they never(unles they morphed) develop the secondary features of metamorphosed animals.



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Old 9th April 2009   #8
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Okay, thank you very much, azhael! How does eating the skin benefit the newt? Is it filled w/ nutrients? Would adding liquid Calcium do anything?



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Old 9th April 2009   #9
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I assume they eat the skin to recycle its nutrients. Liquid calcium will change the water chemistry in the tank. The change could be good or bad, depending on what your starting parameters are (pH, hardness). What exactly is the product you are considering adding (name brand and ingredients)? I think the likely answer is "don't add it", but I don't want to rush into saying that without all the facts.



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Old 9th April 2009   #10
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I'm newer to this and yeah they look similar but my fire belly is pretty black so if yours is more brown than he's probably something else. I wasnt trying to say anyone was wrong just sharing my opinion. Thanks all. Good luck with the Identification.



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Old 9th April 2009   #11
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Hi Crazyfishlady,

I had the same issue with my paddies.

In this old post of mine you can see them together - they look just like yours!

http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=60742



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Old 9th April 2009   #12
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Quote:
Originally Posted by ferret_corner View Post
Hi Crazyfishlady,

I had the same issue with my paddies.

In this old post of mine you can see them together - they look just like yours!

http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=60742

Wow, they do look identical thanks for sharing!

Yeah Jennewt, I think your right about not adding the liquid calcium. All I have at home is the Kent Marine which I know increases the Ph http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=4749 and Saechems reef complete http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...fm?pcatid=4885 which doesn't actually raise the Ph but I'm not sure how the other additives are going to affect them. Thank you!



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Old 15th April 2009   #13
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They are definitely Pachytriton. The second newt, with the spoon-shaped tail, cold be one of the undescribed phenotypes (usualy labelled A - D); I forget the characteristics of each one (I have lost the article i had on the subject), but definately not C. The first newt, which i think is P. labiatus, does not have the same tail shape, as far as i can see in the pictures.

This article has some infor on the different 'phenotypes': http://www.livingunderworld.org/caud...ytriton/#types

The article i was thinking of, but can't find, is in the 30th edition of the English Reptilia Magazine (the European Herp Magazine). Typically it is one of the two back issues they no longer stock.....

P. 'B' has my money for newt 2.

Watch out for aggression between the newts, and make sure they stay cool! Good luck with them


Chris




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Old 16th April 2009   #14
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Thuis is what i call my CFB. Heres a few pictures he looks more brown with the camera, but he is pretty dark. Is it possible I've got his mislabelled as a CFB?

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.



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Old 16th April 2009   #15
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

I am almost 100% positive that is a paddletail. The fingers are short and stubby and any CFB I've ever seen has long thin fingers. The skin is also smooth and brown not black and bumpy. The tail is also the same shape as the Paddletail. It looks identical to my first picture. Did the pet shop sell you this newt as a Chinese Firebelly?

I'm not claiming to be any expert on newts. I knew both of my newts were "Paddletails" I guess the question I should have asked was, "Are they the same variety?". Thank you all for your responses!



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Old 16th April 2009   #16
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Nick: That is definitely a Pachytriton



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Old 16th April 2009   #17
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Oh by the way, thanks for that website froggy, that's exactly what I was looking for.



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Old 16th April 2009   #18
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Hah okay, yeah I thought mine looked exactly like your "newt A" and yeah he was sold to me as a "Firebelly Newt" which i guess is wrong. Either way hes pretty cool and I like him. Just a curious question, are these guys easy to breed, and are they a species that people would want? Thanks again. -Nick



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Old 16th April 2009   #19
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

No, this species is not easy to breed at all.



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Old 16th April 2009   #20
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Default Re: Are these both the same species of Paddletail newt? [PICTURES]

Yeah, they are tricky to breed. There is a thread about a breeding success somewhere in this part of the forum. i will have a look for it in a second. Apparetnly, from what i've read, the young are tough to raise too. The fact that they are difficult does not mean that you shouldn't try though! This is a species that is entirely sourced from the wild at the moment, and CB populations would be fantastic to have established, although I think this is some way off, considering the effort needed to breed them and the cheapness of WC animals in shops.



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