This morning I noticed my Wild type Axie (Jetsam) looks ill. He has 2 decent sized bubbles on his fin and several smaller bumps on one side of his fin. (I have a few photos of this I can post once I return home from work.) I have a 29 gallon tank. The water temp is 75F. It's the warmest it has ever been. I have 2 frozen 2liters in there right now trying to bring the temperature down. My chemistries are all normal. I did a 50% water change 1 week ago. Saturday both axies looked perfectly normal. I must admit I wasnt home much of Sunday and when I did check my tank Jetsam was hiding in a cave. As for Monday I was at work all day and didnt see much of him. My Leucistic axie (Flotsam) appears perfectly healthy. The last time I saw them both eating was Saturday. They are on a diet of salmon pellets and occasional frozen bloodworms. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!!
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Please Help My Axie is Ill
- Thread starter kCm
- Start date
Kerry1968
Active member
When you say fin, do you mean the gills? Also what do you mean by looking ill? Is he still eating normally? How often do you feed them? Has there been any changes to their environment? Anything added to the tank?
The high temperature could be a big factor in your axie being unwell. If you're struggling to keep the temperature down then fridging, as Vidofner recommended, would be a good idea. Also you could take a look at some of the cooling methods shown here (I think in Caudata Culture pages).
How come you did a 50% water change, was there a problem or is that how much you usually change? Normal recommendations are 20% otherwise it could upset the chemistry in your tank.
The high temperature could be a big factor in your axie being unwell. If you're struggling to keep the temperature down then fridging, as Vidofner recommended, would be a good idea. Also you could take a look at some of the cooling methods shown here (I think in Caudata Culture pages).
How come you did a 50% water change, was there a problem or is that how much you usually change? Normal recommendations are 20% otherwise it could upset the chemistry in your tank.
Hi kCm,
Its really hard to gauge without the photos, I am interested in the reason for the 50% water change aswell. Otherwise it could be a number of things. What do you mean by looks ill could you be more specific/ descriptive?
Its really hard to gauge without the photos, I am interested in the reason for the 50% water change aswell. Otherwise it could be a number of things. What do you mean by looks ill could you be more specific/ descriptive?
It wasn't 50% but it was more than 20% for sure it was around 35%-40ish this change was done to cool down the tank, as well as clean, since the temperature in my house have been warmed lately and the frozen water bottle method just hasn't been cutting it. I cant afford any fancy chiller at the moment but I am looking into it. Sorry for my frantic post. I was at work earlier and technically not supposed to be using the internet. So any typos and weirdness is due to that. I have since contacted the breeder where I got my axies and he suggested seperating them and starting some antibiotics. I have since started this but I also wanted to show some pictures as he had never seen the bubbles on the fin before.
My axies are were little pigs when I first got them, they ate pretty much every day, then it seemed they are eatting every other day and now its been about 3 days since their last good meal, they even shunned their favorite bloodworm snack. My leucistic (Flotsam) appears perfectly fine otherwise, active, healthy looking, despite her recent decrease in appettite. She remains in the regular tank, chemistries are all normal and I did a 25% water change today to cool the tank once again; The Wild type (Jetsam) is in his own tank, in a cool area of the house, being treated with a round of antibiotics any other tips you have would be great. Thanks everyone.
My axies are were little pigs when I first got them, they ate pretty much every day, then it seemed they are eatting every other day and now its been about 3 days since their last good meal, they even shunned their favorite bloodworm snack. My leucistic (Flotsam) appears perfectly fine otherwise, active, healthy looking, despite her recent decrease in appettite. She remains in the regular tank, chemistries are all normal and I did a 25% water change today to cool the tank once again; The Wild type (Jetsam) is in his own tank, in a cool area of the house, being treated with a round of antibiotics any other tips you have would be great. Thanks everyone.
Darkmaverick
Site Contributor
Hi Kcm,
You would need to make a vet appointment. Based on the case history and photos, there are several differentials for the lumps. These include anything from gas bubble disease, abscess, granuloma (fungal/parasitic infection), seroma/haematoma (blood component pooling), cysts and such. My top differential is gas bubble disease. Only your vet can perform diagnostic testing and administer the best treatment. Your vet would also be able to administer prophylactic antibiotic treatment.
Have a look at this thread.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62136&highlight=bubble
I recommend you fridge your axie meanwhile. It is imperative you try to cool your main tank down to a stable cool temperature.
http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/Fridging.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cooling.shtml
Cheers.
You would need to make a vet appointment. Based on the case history and photos, there are several differentials for the lumps. These include anything from gas bubble disease, abscess, granuloma (fungal/parasitic infection), seroma/haematoma (blood component pooling), cysts and such. My top differential is gas bubble disease. Only your vet can perform diagnostic testing and administer the best treatment. Your vet would also be able to administer prophylactic antibiotic treatment.
Have a look at this thread.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62136&highlight=bubble
I recommend you fridge your axie meanwhile. It is imperative you try to cool your main tank down to a stable cool temperature.
http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/Fridging.shtml
http://www.caudata.org/cc/articles/cooling.shtml
Cheers.
Thanks so much for your advice. Currently he has been removed from the main tank and is housed in a 10 gallon in front of my a/c vent and his tank temperature is at 62F. He has also been started on Furan-2. After giving him a day to destress I am going to try and handfeed him some blood worms.
I was concerned that those larger lumps were cysts and actually today they do look a bit smaller. Parasites were also a concern on my list. I am kinda in a gray area here since I work for one of the only exotic veterinarians in the area and they don't have much knowledge in axies, but they are trying to learn for my sake. I have on doctor seeking out help from other vets as well. I too am still learning. (we don't get much exotic training in tech school) I really appreciate all the advice from everyone. Thanks for all the links.
michael
2010 Research Grant Donor
kCm said:
See if your vet can get a free on line consult with Dr. Kevin Wright or Dr. Brent Whitaker. They might be able to give some sort of consult but it's tough without drawing fluid or taking a sample. If you contact those guys mention my name. They owe me a favor. I think the Furan 2 is a good shotgun approach and should be helpful.
I hope the other readers or you don't beat me up but how much do you want to pay for vet bills for a 10.00 salamander?
Last edited by a moderator:
Darkmaverick
Site Contributor
Hi KCM,
Since you work at a vet practice, i think an easy and minimally invasive procedure to perform is a fine needle aspirate of the lesions. I personally perform plenty of fine needle aspirates. It can provide a lot of information quickly. Punch biopsy is a bit more invasive so i might hold back on that.
Imaging can also be useful. You can also consider ultrasound using a small sector probe. If gas bubble is a cause, the air silhouette will show on the ultrasound (Air looks white/opaque on Ultrasound). I am not sure whether radiography will be of any use practicality wise since the lesions are in an awkward positioning but can also provide some information.
Cytology and microbiology can then be done from the aspirates which can give an indication of the underlying pathology. You might like to culture some of the aspirate especially for coliforms, blood agar and gram negatives.
I personally will not use Furan-2 until i have at least collected a sample for diagnostic testing. This is because you want to be able to detect presence of any infectious aetiological agent. As a general rule, do not use any antimicrobials/antibiotics until a sample is collected. The reason being that preemptive use can complicate the intepretation of results from the testing (false negatives).
Secondly, without knowing the aetiological agent, use of furan-2 can also result in 1) antibiotic resistant strains developing. The objective in the use of antibiotics is to completely eradicate (bactericidal) the bacteria or halt its proliferation for the immunity to rid it (bacteriostatic). Using a 'weak' non specific treatment like furan-2 risks resistant strains getting a foothold. In addition, the lesions appear walled (abscess/cysts/bubble). Nitrofurazone and furazolidone, the active components in furan-2 are not usually able to penetrate deeply pass the dermal layer into walled lesions as a bath. If antibiotics are indicated, it is more effective via an intraperitoneal injection using amikacin and piperacillin.
Thirdly, using furan-2 can actually promote a secondary resistant infectious agent to thrive. For example, it can help with gram positive and negative bacteria but not against some fungus and parasites. Normally in mixed infections, there is competition among the various microbial agents. By selectively wiping out one group of them, allows the other group to thrive better. This again complicates intepretation and treatment.
Cheers.
Since you work at a vet practice, i think an easy and minimally invasive procedure to perform is a fine needle aspirate of the lesions. I personally perform plenty of fine needle aspirates. It can provide a lot of information quickly. Punch biopsy is a bit more invasive so i might hold back on that.
Imaging can also be useful. You can also consider ultrasound using a small sector probe. If gas bubble is a cause, the air silhouette will show on the ultrasound (Air looks white/opaque on Ultrasound). I am not sure whether radiography will be of any use practicality wise since the lesions are in an awkward positioning but can also provide some information.
Cytology and microbiology can then be done from the aspirates which can give an indication of the underlying pathology. You might like to culture some of the aspirate especially for coliforms, blood agar and gram negatives.
I personally will not use Furan-2 until i have at least collected a sample for diagnostic testing. This is because you want to be able to detect presence of any infectious aetiological agent. As a general rule, do not use any antimicrobials/antibiotics until a sample is collected. The reason being that preemptive use can complicate the intepretation of results from the testing (false negatives).
Secondly, without knowing the aetiological agent, use of furan-2 can also result in 1) antibiotic resistant strains developing. The objective in the use of antibiotics is to completely eradicate (bactericidal) the bacteria or halt its proliferation for the immunity to rid it (bacteriostatic). Using a 'weak' non specific treatment like furan-2 risks resistant strains getting a foothold. In addition, the lesions appear walled (abscess/cysts/bubble). Nitrofurazone and furazolidone, the active components in furan-2 are not usually able to penetrate deeply pass the dermal layer into walled lesions as a bath. If antibiotics are indicated, it is more effective via an intraperitoneal injection using amikacin and piperacillin.
Thirdly, using furan-2 can actually promote a secondary resistant infectious agent to thrive. For example, it can help with gram positive and negative bacteria but not against some fungus and parasites. Normally in mixed infections, there is competition among the various microbial agents. By selectively wiping out one group of them, allows the other group to thrive better. This again complicates intepretation and treatment.
Cheers.
michael
2010 Research Grant Donor
I understand Rayson's answer and forgoing economic considerations it could be the best mode of assessing the disease and treating it. The reality is it is hard to find a vet skilled in treating amphibians and a trip to the vet often makes the problems worse. Most hobbyists will use the best guess treatment instead of paying the high price of taking an inexpensive animal to the vet.
Thank you very much for the info. I will take it into consideration. You've been a great help. I will also pass this along to the vets at my clinic as well.
Darkmaverick
Site Contributor
Hi Michael,
Actually a fine needle aspirate and microscopy hardly cost much for diagnostic examination. In this case, it is even more accessible since KCM works in a vet practice. Any vet would be able to perform this simple and minimally invasive procedure.
In terms of medication, a prophylactic antibiotic treatment (injection or bath) is slightly more expensive than the use of furan-2 but at least safely covers the full spectrum of bacterial agents and is clinically proven to be more effective. The right dosage and frequency of treatment can also be accurately delivered especially in an injectable form compared to a bath of furan-2.
I can understand where you are coming from in terms of economy and i don't dispute hobbyists often have trouble accessing to a vet they trust and also the cost involved. Ultimately, it is their own decision on how they wish to proceed with treating their pet. However, i do think most vets will be keen to do some specific research or refer to a specialist.
I always believe in giving people informed choices and as a vet it is also my obligation to educate them and ensure i give the best practice advise and welfare consideration. Since my professional reputation is at stake and i definitely don't gain any monetary returns, my suggestions on the forum really aim to provide the most practical, cost and treatment effective strategy. If KCM doesn't intend to proceed with costly veterinary medication, i would advise on a prolonged fridging period and isolation rather than reaching out for the furan-2.
There is a wide range of members here. There are experienced breeders who deal with a lot of animals and perceive their animals in terms of value which is understandable. However, on the other end of the specturm, there are also passionate pet owners who would go great lenghts to ensure the best for their much loved pet. I think its best to provide them with options and information and let them make their own judgement based on their circumstances and ideals.
Cheers.
Actually a fine needle aspirate and microscopy hardly cost much for diagnostic examination. In this case, it is even more accessible since KCM works in a vet practice. Any vet would be able to perform this simple and minimally invasive procedure.
In terms of medication, a prophylactic antibiotic treatment (injection or bath) is slightly more expensive than the use of furan-2 but at least safely covers the full spectrum of bacterial agents and is clinically proven to be more effective. The right dosage and frequency of treatment can also be accurately delivered especially in an injectable form compared to a bath of furan-2.
I can understand where you are coming from in terms of economy and i don't dispute hobbyists often have trouble accessing to a vet they trust and also the cost involved. Ultimately, it is their own decision on how they wish to proceed with treating their pet. However, i do think most vets will be keen to do some specific research or refer to a specialist.
I always believe in giving people informed choices and as a vet it is also my obligation to educate them and ensure i give the best practice advise and welfare consideration. Since my professional reputation is at stake and i definitely don't gain any monetary returns, my suggestions on the forum really aim to provide the most practical, cost and treatment effective strategy. If KCM doesn't intend to proceed with costly veterinary medication, i would advise on a prolonged fridging period and isolation rather than reaching out for the furan-2.
There is a wide range of members here. There are experienced breeders who deal with a lot of animals and perceive their animals in terms of value which is understandable. However, on the other end of the specturm, there are also passionate pet owners who would go great lenghts to ensure the best for their much loved pet. I think its best to provide them with options and information and let them make their own judgement based on their circumstances and ideals.
Cheers.
I areally ppreciate everyone advice equally. I have already started the Furan 2 and I am going to follow through with that until the first round is done, if I do not see any great improvements I will take him in for further examination, hopefully by then the vets at my clinic will have gotten a hold of some good information. You may not agree with my method of treatment but I do not wish to remove him from this antibiotic run, you should know that it is always best to finish out a course of antibiotics first. Jetsam still seems fairly active, his appetite is no better but it has only been 4 days of little to no food. The large bubbles have decreased in size but are still apparent.
So far Flotsam appears to be fine, she still has not eaten much herself but she has never been seperated from Jetsam before. I still worry about her as well. Her activity level is great however.
Again I value and appricate everyone advice and information. You have been more than helpful. I hope you will all continue to give advice in the future as well cause I know other people value it just as I do. Thanks again everyone. I will keep you all updated.
Re: Please Help My Axie is Ill - UPDATE
Update for those interested:
First round of antibiotics is complete, the gas bubbles on the fin have gone and taken part of Jetsam's fin with them, hes still seems active, still no real appetite. He's looking thin and has a few bumps still left on his side. I have elected to fridge him for a few weeks. I have also decided to fridge Flotsam, I haven't seen any poop in the aquarium in a few days and she seems a bloated/constipated, she also seems to be developing a small red spot on her side as well as a bubble.
I have also developed a case of string algae in my aquarium (I seem to have all the bad luck!)
So while my axies are away from their home does anyone had an suggetions as to what I should to with the main tank to try and rid of the string algae? So far I was going to go through the usual water change, scrub everything, also get rid of and replace a good amount of my sand subtrate.
As for my aquarium temperature being too high this summer, I am going to be purchasing a screen top, building a shelf for my light to raise it above my tank some, and developing a fan system to help cool the tank, as well as, continue with my frozen water bottle regimen.
Thanks again for all the great advice. If anyone has any great links about fridging for me to read, such as personal experiences and scuch I'd love to see them. I have already gone through a few threads and read and printed off this link (http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/Fridging.shtml) for my own personal reference. Thanks again.
Update for those interested:
First round of antibiotics is complete, the gas bubbles on the fin have gone and taken part of Jetsam's fin with them, hes still seems active, still no real appetite. He's looking thin and has a few bumps still left on his side. I have elected to fridge him for a few weeks. I have also decided to fridge Flotsam, I haven't seen any poop in the aquarium in a few days and she seems a bloated/constipated, she also seems to be developing a small red spot on her side as well as a bubble.
I have also developed a case of string algae in my aquarium (I seem to have all the bad luck!)
So while my axies are away from their home does anyone had an suggetions as to what I should to with the main tank to try and rid of the string algae? So far I was going to go through the usual water change, scrub everything, also get rid of and replace a good amount of my sand subtrate.
As for my aquarium temperature being too high this summer, I am going to be purchasing a screen top, building a shelf for my light to raise it above my tank some, and developing a fan system to help cool the tank, as well as, continue with my frozen water bottle regimen.
Thanks again for all the great advice. If anyone has any great links about fridging for me to read, such as personal experiences and scuch I'd love to see them. I have already gone through a few threads and read and printed off this link (http://www.caudata.org/axolotl-sanctuary/Fridging.shtml) for my own personal reference. Thanks again.
Darkmaverick
Site Contributor
HI KCM,
I am beginning to suspect gas bubble disease more and more. The red spot could be indicative of a secondary aeromonas infection that causes 'red leg' or scepticaemia. I think the most critical thing is to cool down your main tank and check that there are no excessive aeration. If you have an air pump or filter, set it to a lower setting. Ensure no leaks in tubings etc that could increase bubbles in the waters. Using a spray bar could help dissipiate gases in the water before they go into the main tank.
Fridging is always good. You can consider injectable antibiotics at this stage.
Cheers.
I am beginning to suspect gas bubble disease more and more. The red spot could be indicative of a secondary aeromonas infection that causes 'red leg' or scepticaemia. I think the most critical thing is to cool down your main tank and check that there are no excessive aeration. If you have an air pump or filter, set it to a lower setting. Ensure no leaks in tubings etc that could increase bubbles in the waters. Using a spray bar could help dissipiate gases in the water before they go into the main tank.
Fridging is always good. You can consider injectable antibiotics at this stage.
Cheers.
I am starting to think the same thing as well. While both axies are in the fridge I am going to work on my tank. The glass top is going and will be replaced with a screen top and I will either be purchasing fans or looking into making my own cooling system. I currently have one small airstone with the line pinched off so its not pumping at full blast causing a ton of motion (wondering if I should just remove this all together) and my filter has always been set at the lowest setting with the water flow set at the back wall to break up the flow. I always through a spray bar would produce too much motion, am I wrong?
Darkmaverick
Site Contributor
Hi KCM,
A spray bar will minimise turbulence and also allow gases to dissipate as the water returns to the tank via a 'mist'. Have a look at this thread. I covered the gas bubble disease quite in depth and i think there will be common things you can use.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62136&highlight=bubble
Cheers.
A spray bar will minimise turbulence and also allow gases to dissipate as the water returns to the tank via a 'mist'. Have a look at this thread. I covered the gas bubble disease quite in depth and i think there will be common things you can use.
http://www.caudata.org/forum/showthread.php?t=62136&highlight=bubble
Cheers.
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Shane douglas:with axolotls would I basically have to keep buying and buying new axolotls to prevent inbred breeding which costs a lot of money??+1
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Thorninmyside:Not necessarily but if you’re wanting to continue to grow your breeding capacity then yes. Breeding axolotls isn’t a cheap hobby nor is it a get rich quick scheme. It costs a lot of money and time and deditcation+1
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Clareclare:Would Chinese fire belly newts be more or less inclined towards an aquatic eft set up versus Japanese . I'm raising them and have abandoned the terrarium at about 5 months old and switched to the aquatic setups you describe. I'm wondering if I could do this as soon as they morph?+1
Clareclare:
Would Chinese fire belly newts be more or less inclined towards an aquatic eft set up versus...
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