Illness/Sickness: Advice on what to do next?

Hi everyone,

Firstly i apologise, i realise there are many posts about similar things but i read them all and still wasn't sure what to do. I'd rather not play a guessing games with my boys health in case i'm wrong.

My lovely little lotl Francis isn't doing so good at the moment. He's been looking a bit off for the last few weeks so i've been keeping a very close eye on him and making sure he's eating and acting normally. However a week ago his gills started to shrink quite dramaticly. The water perameters were ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 20 and ph was 7.8 however he's in the fridge now. The water temperature however has gone up a lot over the past few weeks as the warmer weather sets in, it's now at 22 degrees which i realise is way to high and i'm using several methods to cool it down (which unfortunatly is what's keeping it at 22) until i can save up for a chiller. My other axie is perfectly healthy, eating, sitting around as usual. Francis has been in the fridge for a week now and I am convinced the water temp is the main issue. However he i shedding a lot of skin and has odd pale patches and i'm concerned about the look of his gills. I've attached photos. He's also lost some of his apitite and has lost weight and looks..smaller somehow. Also the temperature in the fridge is 10degrees it's an old fridge so it won't go any lower or higher then i'm afraid but it does stay nice and stable.

My new local vet who I trust has said she'd be happy to see and treat him but she has no expirience. This is my only option if he needs a vet because the other is driving him for an hour and half and I can't afford it nor do i want to stress him out that much. I'm still not sure if it is only that he was too warm and keeping him in the fridge will heal him but do tell me if you think he needs the vet becasue i will take him as soon as possible if he does.

Any adivce would be greatly apreciated i'm very worried I love my little man. (and rather prone to panicking about these things of late.)

Fantastic plan. You tested the water, the temperature and already put the axie in a fridge at 10 degrees while making arrangements to see a vet if necessary. You have done well.

You are absolutely right. The temperature is definitely a cause of this. In another thread, i brought up the issue of gill pathology and atrophy due to elevated water temperature. I have seen so many cases both clinically and at necropsy around summer. In fact, i just came back from a aquarium shop around the inner city when their stock of 17 axies lost appetite, their gills and even fins despite good water parameters. Even though a chiller unit was used, the summer heat still caused the tank to hover around the 23 degree mark for a week. All the axies had stumpy gills and some even started to recede fins. They only arrived to the shop 1 week ago in good condition.

The best course of action really is to fridge the axie over the entire summer. You can still of course offer small portions of food throughout.

Were there any skin shedding?

Oh good, i'm doing the right things then. :happy:

I think i read that thread where you were talking about the effects of the warmer water on axie's before posting this. It made me think putting my other Axie who appears healthy at the moment, in the fridge as well would be a good idea. I don't want him to get sick also.

He's shedding what looks like a large amount of skin to me. I can see it in the water and I think that's what the odd light patches are on his side.

HI,

I would take him to a vet for a smear test, because the white patches look like bacterial film, to me.

-Tina-

Really, what's bacterial film? that sounds scary haha. Thanks for the reply, i think i'll book him an apointment at the vets on Monday. Better safe then sorry :happy:.

The reason i asked about skin shedding because some axies respond to elevated water temperature by going through an aggressive skin shedding phase. It has something to do with the protective slime coat layer production.

Although a trip to the vet is always good, you can also try tea baths and just monitoring the axie in the fridge. If the skin shedding were due to temperature issue, normally within 3 days of fridging it would resolve.

Although parasitism and pathogenic bacteria are on the differential list, they are lower on the list in my opinion.

Sorry for the late respon my power and internet have been down since sunday night.

On Sunday morning when i checked him he had white fungus on him so I started doing salt baths. It's clearly fungus but it's not the same as the other gew coloured stuff on his skin. He's looking very poorly and won't eat anything. (though i expect that, being in the fridge i'm not too worried about the not eating) Also the fin on his back (i'm afraid i've drawn a blank on what it's called) has shrunken now. The fungus apeared so suddenly and it's everywhere it's quite scary. I hope the salt baths are helping but i really can't be sure yet.

Hi teztroubadour,

I'm with Tina; I would take the little fellow to a vet and let them swab him for analysis. Looks like some sort of infection has got hold of him. Salt baths won't help in that case; he will need medication.

Good luck to you both,

-Eva

Thanks for the reply,

The vet had a look at him today but she's never treated an axolotl before, she's smart and confident however and she's going to ring some people in sydney who know more about them and ask them what we should do. I'll ask her about the swabs perhaps she'll be able to do those. They wouldn't need any special equipment for that would they? I live in a small rural town our vets are set up for cows and dogs and that's about it. She's my only option as far as vets are concerned, she's the only one in the practice who'll treat him and the nearest herp vet is too far. They are very willing there to make things work though and go the extra mile since they are the only vets. I'm taking my rooster in on thursday (having a bad run with my pets at the moment.) so she's going to let me know all she's organised then.

Heaps of the fungus came off in his salt bath tonight that's good isn't it? The grey stuff is still there though.

Thanks again to all of you, I think i'd go mad without this forum.

Hi teztroubadour,

No, she won't need anything special to take a smear. Cotton swab I reckon. She just needs a sample to analyze whether and what sort of bacteria he has. That the fungus comes off is of course excellent. Salt baths and cool temps are the right way to go for that. The film on his skin is something else, though, and needs a closer look (analysis). Your vet will certainly be able to help you.

-Eva

Have a look at this list of vets and see if any of these could be of assistance, they all deal with axolotls.

Cool thank you. I'll ask my vet to do a test then, hopefully with that and the help from the more expirienced vets she's going to ring we'll be able to work out how to treat him.

Unfortunatly the closest vet on that list is at least 2 hours away, i'm a bit frightened to take him that far. Unless I really need to of course, if my vet says she can't help then i'll take him up there if i have too.

I am confident your vet will be able to help you. Identifying the cause and its treatment is easy, and when she talks to a vet with experience with amphibians, the other vet will be able to explain how to administer any needed meds. You can, of course, also always check back here if you are unsure about what you are told. (You will keep us updated, right?)

-Eva

Persist with the salt baths 2x daily, 8 hours apart. That would keep the fungal and external parasite infections at bay while the fridge impedes any bacterial proliferation.

Veterinary intervention is always a good option as early diagnosis and treatment leads to better prognosis.

The problem with swabbing axie skin is that it can abrade the skin further leading to deeper infections. Also, axies unlike mammalian skin do not harbour the same commensal microflora. In other species, you would expect staph and streps. In axies, their home environment is chock a bloc full of normal aquatic bacteria that can make interpretation difficult. Saprolegniasis and other common bacterial infections like aeromonas, pseudomonas are all naturally present in the water and only infect opportunistically when the immunity is compromised.

It is better directly giving a therapeutic dose of broad spectrum antibiotics (amikacin + piperacillin +/- metronidazole) or if unavailable (gentamicin or enrofloxacin) by inhjection. This can be further supported by fluid therapy (ringers solution). Most bacterial infections in axies are caused by gram negative bacteria and those antibiotics will be able to target most of them.

Hi Ray,

So you would suggest a broad-range antibiotic treatment without identifying the cause of the problem? The swab samples I know of are actually taken from the cloake, and doctors here always first attempt a specific, local treatment before resorting to a heavier, systemic tactic. Interesting.

-Eva

Hi,

it´s already right, that some bacteria like aeromonas, pseudomonas etc. are present in the tank water and even on the axies skin. But the quantity of those bacteria is the crucial factor and a well-versed vet (specially in amphibians) can differentiate between pathogen and non-pathogen bacterial flora.

The problem of an antibiotic treatment without identification of the pathogen bacteria is the resistance of many bacteria to many antibiotics and so the antibiotics cannot work. (oh god, I hope you understand what I wanted to say)

-Tina-

Firstly Eva and Callina, it may be unbelievable, but i am a fully registered and licensed vet practising in NSW. I do have postgraduate qualifications and training towards a specialist qualification in lab animal medicine (which includes amphibians). Axolotl samples are usually directed to the university pathology laboratory for analysis as well as this is a referral field. The suggestions i give on this forum are exactly what i would have done if clients brought their axies to me as if it were a charged consult. They are not throwaway comments without careful thinking and planning. Furthermore, do you think i would risk losing my licence by giving wrong advice?

It goes without saying that a definitive diagnosis is ideal. However, you have to consider time frame and duration in diagnosis versus treatment. Any microbial swab culture will take about 2 - 3 days to finalise. Bacteria colonies take time to grow and at the lab, different culture media and environmental settings (Anaerobic chamber etc) determine how fast or slow somthing grows. In general 3 days is the norm. An antibiotic sensitivity and susceptibility test also takes days beyond the first initial 3 days as a bacterial lawn of the pathogenic isolate is required to make a 'lawn' where discs infused with antibiotics are placed to check for zoning. So in all, it might take a week before you get any specific diagnosis. It also translates to additional costs for the client.

Of course, if the client is happy to pursue full diagnostics, this can still be performed but meanwhile supportive and at least palliative treatment has to be given. We can't just sit and wait for a week and twiddle thumbs. Meanwhile, a general broad based antibiotic therapy will in most instances, have a completely curative effect. A systemic injection of antibiotics is the most effective route of therapy. It delivers a known dose and cocktail of medication to the axie accurately. It prevents systemic infection and is effective in treating any bacterial skin infection. Some vets opt for medicated baths. I find them effective only for minor skin infections but for more generalised ones, they are less effective. After a week treatment on empirical therapy, specific therapy can then be issued if there are resistant isolates found. You can't give a 'local' medical treatment to a specific skin patch in axies. Their home environment being fully aquatic, means that either medication is given in a bath or through injection. There are no axie 'creams' that stick on that one spot. A well calculated dosage, administered properly with supportive therapy is not invasive.

As for differentiating pathogens from saprophytes/microflora, i do a lot of those, and it is from experience that i can specifically say that they are not as straightforward in axies as compared to other species. In some instances, we can immediately tell because pathogenic species not normally found in water or on axie's skin can be found such as the mycobacteria species. However, in the vast majoirty of the cases, axie's bacterial infections are by opportunistic bacteria found naturally in the tank environment. Furthermore, they tend to get mixed infections rather than infection from a single type of agent. Bacterial infections also tend to be systemic. Local infections normally result in abscesses. Number of organism per tissue slide per microscopic field can be used as a indication to indicate if that is a cause of pathology. However, these would likely be the exact same organisms present in the tank water and responsive to antibiotics targeted at the gram negatives.

A cloacal swab is useful for assessing gastrointestinal / reproductive tract infections but is not a one swab for all test.

My assessment in this case is that the initial heat stressed and immunocompromised the axie. Thereafter, it became susceptible to infections, in this case a definite fungal infection +/- bacterial. Although bacterial and fungal infections can both occur concurrently, it is normally more common to find either fungal infection or bacterial infection alone with skin pathology. Think of the fungus and bacteria both vying for space and nutrients on the same patch of skin.

Wow thank you all, that little discussion taught me lots. I'm going to take your advice straight to my vet and i'll continue the salt baths twice a day. Hopefully she'll be able to get started with treatment as soon as possible, I think she's a little nervouse as she's never treated an axie before. I'll ring her up now, hopefully I can take him in tomorow if they have the right stuff to give him.

I'll deffinatly keep you updated on how he's going, hopefully i'll be able to tell you how well he is soon. Wish us luck, i'll do everything I have to, to get him well again.

My poor little man, it's all my fault he's got so sick. I should've put him in the fridge as soon as the tank water went up. My tank is staying at 20 degrees and going down to 18 degrees at night hopefully that's ok for my other axie? I'm organising a small fridge to keep them both in over summer anyway, but until i have that ready.

@Ray: Whoa, honey, I surely didn't mean to threaten you! I know you are a vet, I was here to congratulate you - when was it, last summer? - when you got your degree. I am just trying to understand what you write, and offer my perspectives as well, particularly when my experience differs from yours. That is why this is called a forum, not a monologue, no? I'm sending you a PN. :happy:

@teztroubadour: Sorry to digress in your thread, but I wanted to clear that up as quickly as possible. The temp range of 18-20° C should be fine as long as you are diligent about water quality (adequate water changes and tank hygiene). Please do keep us updated as things progress. Best of luck to both of you.

-Eva

Hi,

@ray:
I know that you´re a vet and I never disbelieved that. If you did understand my remarks as such - I beg your pardon.
I only wanted to clarify that it´s imho important to identify the pathogen bacteria for the best treatment. But that doesn´t exclude an immediate treatment with an broad-spectrum antibiotic, does it? .......and if there´s no recovery after a week, the bacteria will be identified and the axie can get the right medicine. Without a determination of the pathogenic germs, it´s a guessing game which antibiotic could work.
I hope, I could clarify my earlier post a little bit for you.:happy:

@teztroubadour:
I´m sure, that you´re doing all the best for your axie and I cross my fingers for you.:happy:

-Tina-