Illness/Sickness: Cloaca fungus? IGNORANT OWNER!!!

Hi,

My axolotl, Mr Mastofoles, recently fell ill with what appeared to be a fungal gill infection. She had lost much of her right gill with a previous infection and it never repaired, most likely due to my ignorance of water parameters though luckily she never died, especially despite my cleaning the tank completely once a month in total ignorance of the nitrogen cycle. I recently purchased a male axie and he and her mated, the eggs are now hatched and the larvae are growing My concern however is that shortly afterward i cleaned the tank to remove the egg membranes that were left over and she fell ill, her right gill became fuzzy and red but with some pimafix that has cleared up. The lady at the pet store said the water quality wasn't great and now with some test kits and much more knowledge the pH is stable at around 7, the ammonia reads at below .50ppm and i have no way of testing for nitrites or nitrates, yet... After the water quality was fixed however she developed a fungus on the cloaca that isn't going away and it has been four days with the pimafix! Im becoming worried... My male, Mrs Mastofoles has yet to develop anything however so that is good... As well as the fungus she was recently floating at the tail and gulping air regularly however the addition of an air stone cured the air gulping and a large poop appears to have stopped the floating... I feed them, as of a week ago, beef heart as well as meal worms but am looking into a better staple diet, any suggestions? I also had a sea snail in the tank formerly aswell though removed it in case of parasites and feeding on the axies mucus layer. She also has a slightly curled tail and upturned gills on the left... That is about all I think I can say... any suggestions on the cloaca fungus? Is it possible in birth she tore her cloaca or that it became infected? She is still eating and apart from the described signs shows little stress...

Thank You!!

Whew, ya got a bit going on there.

You really need to do some homework, fast All you really need to know is here Axolotls: The Fascinating Mexican Axolotl and the Tiger Salamander

Firstly, the substrate in the pics is unsuitable - the floating and the big poop could have been the pre cursor to an impaction problem. Lose the gravel, it's too big - go without for the moment, and get some sand later.

On the above site (and search the forums here) you can find some info about treating fungus with salt baths - i'd probably try them

Learn about the cycle, it seems hard at first, but it's really very simple. Google is your friend. BUy a test kit for nitrogen and nitrates, they really are cheap, i don't mean to be flippant, but $40 or so is a small price to pay to get the tank right - try here API Freshwater Master Test Kit

The ammonia is too high at .5, you need to get that down, daily 20% water change

Food - Aquarium Supermarket - AquaMaster Axolotl Food 150g and worms compost worms, worm farm, delivered Australia wide

Sea snail? As in the sea that is made up of salt water? In a fresh water tank? ok, glad that's gone!

Curled tail and forward facing gills are signs of stress - excessive water flow or temp

Hope that gives you a start for your reading!

bren

nothing to add, just somehow posted twice, sorry

Honestly, I couldn't tell much from your pics. Fungus in axolotls usually presents as white and cottonlike - is this what hers looked like?

You stated that the pH is now stable around 7.0 - have you added anything to get the pH to 7? Unfortunately, most petshop folks view the axolotl as a fish, which of course they are not, and will provide chemicals meant for use with fish. pH buffers are not necessary with axolotls as they can handle a wide pH range as you would read in the link that Blackdog has provided. Without knowing the nitrite/nitrate levels, you really don't know if your water quality is fixed or if your tank is cycled...

As Blackdog mentioned, you should also be aware that that gravel icould be swallowed by your axies, causing possible impaction. This possible swallowing could have led to the cloaca problems you are experiencing.

The problem could have been brought about by the mealworms too. Mealworms have exoskeletons which cannot be digested. Also, unless you are de-capitating them, they could also actually bite your axolotl - even from the inside. Any mammal flesh (beef) is very difficult for axolotls to digest. Nightcrawlers/earthworms really are a better staple as previously stated.

If you could be a better shot of her cloaca, we might be able to see what is actually going on there.

The air gulping could have been more related to the poor water quality, not a lack of oxygen.

Are you using any sort of water dechlorinator to treat your water? Your water could contain chlorine/chloramines if you don't have your own well, or there could be trace metals in the water.

How big is your tank? How about the temp? What kind of filter are you using? These are some other things that could be stressing her.

I would suggest to fridge your sick girl for the immediate. I would back off the pimafix as if you have a fungus issue on the gills, a salt bath could provide better results. However, you describe her gills as disappearing and red, this could be a gill infection rather than a fungus or she could have a parasite. Fridging will help de-stress her. Here is how you do that - Fridging

Hi,

Since this afternoon I have read up a whole lot! The snail was a snail, not a sea snail, my error... I will remove the gravel and get the test kits asap as well...

The filter is an aqua one over hang filter as well as an airator stone... The tank should be cycled soon, i just didn't have any spair tanks but considering the horrors she has gone through with complete cleans and water changes previously I'm sure she should be ok...

I will fridge her soon but every time I read this it seems cruel, though I understand it will both slow the fungus and her metabolism, biding me time... Salt bathing seems very cruel, amphibians are covered in a permeable mucus layer and a salt bath could damage this I believe...

I thought beef heart seemed strange when the lady sold it to me and i had been noticing the chitin exoskeletons floating in the gravel for some time but only recently started vacuuming as opposed to a tank clean, though I will start a worm farm asap if that is a good staple diet...

The floating has begun since the beef heart so perhaps she is getting a gas build up? I do cut the heads off the worms as I was told to at the pet store... I dont believe it is impaction as I leave no food on the tank floor and have never seen either attempting to search for food on the tank base... In fact I have trained them to feed from a pair of tongs so well that they dont even attempt to eat food directly in front of them on the base of the tank - they only feed from the tongs... You can even see them looking upward in expectation of the great tongs of the sky! She is however floating again...

The fungus on the gill was cottony but it had appeared to of returned today but when she swam quickly it all fell of so perhaps it was some floating debris that had become well anchored on her gill, though there is definately some sort of mucus or cottony fungus hanging/growing around the cloaca, despite the pimafix in the water...

The tank is 2ftx1ftx1.3ft and holds 48L... The male appears to be perfectly fine and she has significantly reduced the air gulping and her gills only go upright every hour or so, hence my being convinced the tank must be nearly fully cycled... I do use a dechlorinator though (please dont grill me), I used to use a drastic underdose due to ignorance of tank volume, though she is alive and has never stopped eating...

Thanks for all the help and I have added some pics to try and help, though the cloaca is hard to photograph when she constantly moves into a position to be fed...

Glad to hear you have been reading and following the recommendations. I understand your reluctance to salt baths and to fridging, believe me I felt much the same way. However, I have experienced the benefits first hand many times. My best example came when my little 2" long Osiris suffered a nasty head injury after becoming trapped under a tank divider. I found him lifeless in the bottom of the tank, thought for sure he was dead. I put him in a separate tub just to observe him and he twitched ever so slightly. Long story short, I fridged him for 3 weeks. He never ate hardly anything in that time, became very skinny, so I returned him to room temp to see if he'd eat, or perhaps it would be better to let him go. He did eat and to see the end of my little story - you need only to look at my avatar - that's Osiris!

(Disclaimer here - I don't say to fridge without good reason nor do I believe one's gills will surge like hers as a result of being in the fridge. I do believe the fridging saved her life.)

As for the salt baths, keep in mind that this is actually a pretty weak solution - but don't keep them in longer than the 15 min. max. I have had many successes with these as well. It can actually encourage the slimecoat to become stronger.

Do you have anything diverting the flow on your filter? The water fall can be pretty powerful and axolotls prefer still, pond like conditions. This could be stressing your little girl. Some axolotls are more sensitive to certain conditions than others. I have one who will stop eating if the temp rises 2 degrees. I also feel that 48L is too small for 2 axolotls. I would suggest at least a 3ft tank for 2 axolotls.

I still can't tell what's happening with her cloaca but her gills still look to have some fungus happening there so I still suggest a salt bath and fridging for the cloaca situation.

As far as training them to eat from tongs, this isn't to say they still won't try a rock here and there when you are not looking. Lovely animals, but not too bright! I also feed mine in the same manner but still see them occasionally sampling the sand, attacking a moss ball, or biting one of their plants...

I'm sorry to say that tank is too small, it doesn't look like a 2' long tank to me to be honest, perhaps it's just that your axies are very large throwing me off, but something doesn't add up due to the volume.

It does look very tall though, but that isn't much use to two axies who spend their time walking about.

You have already mentioned the gravel needs to go, this is paramount.

I would suggest looking into a largest aquarium, your 50l is barely large enough for one, let alone two.

The issue is water quality, which is going to be hard to maintain with two adults in that space.

Good luck with the fungus, just follow the vet's advice.

Thanks, this advice is very helpful... Is it ok to fridge then salt bathe then back to the fridge or is this dangerous? Also the last photo was of the gill a couple of days ago, sorry about the confusion, the face on is current... I am looking into a 4ft tank that holds 220L... I was hoping to keep four in there though, would that be ok? I was also thinking of putting in some ramshorn snails and glass shrimp, is this ok? I will fix the water flow also... I was also wondering about undergravel filters or are these more hassle then they are worth? My plan was the 4ft tank with plants from the axolotl sanctuary reccomended list to help water quality.... On the photo of the cloaca you can see a small dangling cottony thing, that is what I suspect the fungus is... Also how much should I be feeding them, I hear overfeeding can seriously wack out water chemistry... Thanks heaps!

Also the reason the tank looks small is because she is 27cm, though Mrs Mastofoles, the little male in the log, is only 20cm... There names are reversed as i bought the male when I found out my beloved Mr Mastofoles was a girl, haha, so naturally i needed to rectify the situation...

I would try the salt bath for the cloaca and yes, you can do salt baths along with the fridging, just be aware of the water temps. Let her return to room temp naturally for that salt bath, and then return her to the fridge.

As far as diet, there's nothing better than nightcrawlers and those won't mess up your chemistry unless they spit one back out that you don't see, but with normal tank housekeeping, you should find him before that happens. Judge how much to feed them by proportion. Their bodies should be as wide as their heads, if the bodies are wider - you need to cut back a little, if the head is wider - add a little more to the diet.

Personally, I would avoid the snails altogether - but I am a worry wort when it comes to my axolotls and I would worry about what those shells could do to their insides.

I would suggest using a small canister filter if you decide to change. I use zoo med 501s, but fluvals and eheims are also popular. If you are diligent with your housekeeping, 4 should be fine if you have a hide for each.

It should also be noted that any new members (including live plants) you plan on adding in will need to be quarantined for 30 days prior to introduction. This is to prevent possible illnesses/parasites from being introduced to your axolotls.

The tank looks about the same size as my first one.

It is probably ok (borderline) for size, i wouldn't go straight out and buy a new one (especially if you havent got it right yet)

Having said that, i upgraded from my smaller tank to a 36 x 18 x 18 inch recently, and it just looks soooooo much better for my two boys. I theory i could easily put another one in, but i'm not going to. i have them set up with a couple of great big hides and plants etc, and judging by all the axie foot prints in the sand, they utlise every bit of the extra room in the night time plant wrecking parties. So, i'd get them heathy and get the tank cycled (i like your optimism, but i seriously doubt your tank is cycled yet ) - and then you can get a new tank - a place in St Albans (Melbourne) sells the 36 x 18 x 18 inch tanks for about $95 incl foam and covers - freight would be a consideration for you, but it would still be a pretty good value tank - fleabay has heaps for sale all the time too

As previously mentioned, even though you feed by hand, they can/ will still eat stones. They are vacuum feeders, and if something moves in front of them they naturally take a big gulp, taking in the moving object and what ever else happens to be nearby. And, also previously mentioned, they are not the sharpest tools in the shed - i once saw one of my guys flick his tail in front of his own face and CHOMP - he took a neat 3 mm off the end - DUH - so you can be sure they bite at things when you aren't around to see

bren

Regarding your reluctance to use salt - professionals who use these animals for laboratory purposes (and, hence, have a vested interest in their well being) recommend the use of Holtfretter's solution as a constant addition to the axie's water to maintain their health. Search this site for the proper recipe.

Holtfretters solution huh? I will look into it... I have been speeking to an enthusiast at a fish shop and I will soon be getting a 4ft tank with stand for $270... He says leave snails out also but shrimp are excellent tankmates, he even keeps some minnows with his but reccomended waiting until the axies are larger before putting them in so they are less prone to attacking the gills... He also said put more rather than less as they will be more entwined with one another and avoid the axie as they are sociable fish and arent aggressive... Just to nbe sure I would monitor them though... Thank you all heaps, I will put up some more pics when they are happy and in a new tank!

White cloud are suppoedly not aggressive or gill nippers (i still have my WCM's in quarantine, so can't speak from experience) i also have cherry red shrimp ready to go in as well.

Other types of minnows can however be gill nippers, so choose wisely.

My choice was the white cloud over other minnows or guppies as -

* WCM are not aggressive
* WCM are not bothered by a lower tank temp (guppies are a bit more so i'm told)

the white cloud or shrimp might not breed in the colder tank though, thats why i have a seperate breeder tank (or death row as i call it) having the seperate tank is obviously good for quarantine times too

Bren

Yes though I'm quickly discovering it is best to have a tank for all cases as I have three at the moment: one for my axies, on for some guppies and tetras i had intended as a food source but now will be turned into a community tank for them and maybe some loaches and catfish then a tank for my baby axolotls which are growing nicely!

I have lessened the filters waterflow also and am in the process of changing the stones, I have collected many river pebbles from our outised garden walkway and have scrubbed them, soaked them, rinsed them, scrubbed them, soaked em and rinsed em and are about to put them on to boil...

Yaimfat said:

I have lessened the filters waterflow also and am in the process of changing the stones, I have collected many river pebbles from our outised garden walkway and have scrubbed them, soaked them, rinsed them, scrubbed them, soaked em and rinsed em and are about to put them on to boil...

Click to expand...

that's really good that you are taking the advise given with a smile and actioning it.

Just one thing, and again, i'm not trying to be glib or harsh, but why are you so hell bent on having river pebbles or something in there right now?

Can i suggest you simply remove all the current gravel, and just leave it bare bottom for a little while?

1 If your guys have ingested any pepples so far, a bare tank will show that when they poop - you will know when they are all clear

2 You have a lot going on. You have multiple issues, and you are making multiple fixes.

I think you should just stop, take a breath & work on the current problems you have instead of possibly introducing new ones. let the tank cycle and work on the fungus issues without introducing new variables to the equation.

For example, what if the river peoples have a high content of some metal or a bacteria that causes a reaction? Right now, you have so many issues you might have stressed or sick axies and not know what caused it.

I'd suggest -

1 Go bare bottom tank for a while - just let it settle
2 Get the fungus right
3 Cycle the tank (get the tests to make sure)

then.......

4 make the tank pretty

bren

Aight, good idea

Yaimfat said:

I have lessened the filters waterflow also and am in the process of changing the stones, I have collected many river pebbles from our outised garden walkway and have scrubbed them, soaked them, rinsed them, scrubbed them, soaked em and rinsed em and are about to put them on to boil...

Click to expand...

Congratulations, you've made the cut!

Many get given advice, take it badly and sooner or later their axies will die.

You've heeded the advice and actioned it, your axies will hopefully remain healthy and you you will be welcomed here with open arms. We all make mistakes at the start.

Welcome to the club, your only fee is that you feed us regular photos of your axies and make sure you ask for help when you need it.

Another good Axie keeper. Rep given.

Thank you, I appreciate the help and hope in time I may help some people...