WHY C. orientalis often advised to new people??

Hi all,

Every time that I see new people asking which species are good to begin with, they get the advise to start with Cynops orïentalis. That's something I do not completely understand... C. orientalis is a specie that is not often for sale as CB, just a few people breeds them to sell... Yes they are easy to get at the petshop, but these WC animals are sick all the time and probably die withing a couple of weeks or maybe months. Then why is everyone advising this specie to new people?? There are many other species that can be advised and are easier to get as CB. Cynops ensicauda, Cynops pyrrhogaster, Triturus, etc.. are easier to get as CB, so why not stop advising C. oriëntalis?

Kind Regards,

Steven

...and C./H. orientalis is not easy to raise at all, if you can get cb. Adults are easy to maintain, but juvie's sure aren't.

Joost said:

...and C./H. orientalis is not easy to raise at all, if you can get cb. Adults are easy to maintain, but juvie's sure aren't.

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Thanks for making it complete, Joost! No they aren't easy to maintain as juveniles...

To make it more complete: Me and some others did mentioned this subject in several topics. But I'm glad it now deserves it's own topic.

Simple. They flood every single shop of every single country in every single continent.
Need more facts?

I'm sorry, but are you now advising wildcaught animals, because they are mass imported?

eljorgo said:

Simple. They flood every single shop of every single country in every single continent.
Need more facts?

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That's the most ridiculous fact to advise them. First of all they are WC so you are telling to buy some WC animals. These WC are sick and people who wants to start with salamanders and accually buy them, because they are advised to them on a forum by experienced hobbyist, get disillusioned right away. If you tell them that they should buy some C. orientalis to have good salamanders, you are accually lying to them...

I find the recommendation of C. orientalis strange considering their temperature requirements - I think most people's houses will be too warm for them.

I think the biggest problem for people who want to start keeping newts is that you usually can't buy CB adults (as somebody else pointed out in another thread here). I raised C. pyrrhogaster and basically couldn't get rid of them even though they are much more suitable than C. orientalis, they were CB, etc.

In many places, captive bred salamanders are not available. IF there are options, they will tend to be H.orientalis, Pachytriton granulosus, Paramesotriton chinensis [all WC]. Of those three, I think the first will be least problematic for keeping multiple animals or for breeding, although the Pachytriton are possibly the hardiest if you give them their room. Other places [in North America], you may also be able to get Ambystoma opacum, A.maculatum, Plethodon glutinosus, Plethodon cinereus, Notophthalmus viridescens [all illegal here], as well as Amphiuma, Siren, Ambystoma mavortium, A.tigrinum, and the occasional Eurycea or Desmognathus...all WC. So can a beginner GET CB salamanders? Often, no. Axolotls are CITES-regulated, so they don't readily cross borders. Any shipping of animals between the USA and Canada requires inspection fees, permits, permit fees, AND AIR freight - while there may be courier delivery possible within the USA, air freight is the only viable option to ship across the border. Within Canada, the second-largest country in the world, with a very small population density...courier service for live animals is often not allowed and even more often frowned upon with the hobby, and shipping costs are higher than south of the border. Anyone without a credit card, probably won't be ordering anything from anywhere, although they might be able to buy a prepaid card to do it.

That's for here - a large and low-population density region within a large and low population country. Many of the factors apply elsewhere too - good luck finding much variety of CB salamander within Montana, USA for example.

That doesn't make WC H.orientalis the ideal starter, but it may make it the best overall choice for the large number of people who just don't have access to CB.

FYI, I have WC H.orientalis breeding [and transforming] within a retail/wholesale setting, in a building which is noticeably warmer than most homes in this country. All I did was cull them from the bulk tanks, put them in a filtered planted environment separate from the rest, and fed them well. I don't care to imagine how warm some people's homes are if they're too warm for this species :S

I agree wholeheartedly that recommending H.orientalis to beginners just makes no sense. I would never advice anyone to acquire WC, pet-shop animals, simply because they are a poor choice.
I can´t speak for the situation in the US or Canada, but i can speak for europe, and here, anyone can get CB animals shipped if they want to. I think you are doing someone new a BIG favour when you recommend CB animals and make them aware of the possibilities they have by purchasing from breeders all over europe.
Just because H.orientalis is very widely available it doesn´t mean it´s a good choice at all. Cigarettes are also widely available in every country

H.orientalis is a fantastic species, extremely easy and rewarding to keep, but we all know the problems associated with them because of their unfortunate origin.

Even if someone can´t or doesn´t want to get animals shipped from other european countries, there may be local breeders. I think the best advice i can give someone who is looking for newts is to be patient and check for local breeders (or foreign breeders) rather than buy the first newt they find at a pet-shop, just because it´s handy.


Here in europe, my experience tells me that people buy H.orientalis when a) they don´t know of any alternative or b) they act on impulse. However, when people become aware of the situation of H.orientalis imports, and of the world of CB possibilities, they very seldom look back.
I think it´s our responsability as members of a community that wants the best both for the hobbyists and for the animals to advice people, not to go with the easiest option, but to go with the best one, or at least try. IF it proofs impossible, then so be it. Mind you, here in europe, there really is no excuse since buying from breeders is just dead easy, no matter where you live.

Anyway, sorry for the rambling. My point is that if someone comes here for good advice, then i can´t tell them to go buy a H.orientalis from the nearest shop, because that´s just not good advice...i can do better than that and advice them to check the good CB stuff xD

As posted in an other topic there are many other species that can be advised and are common available.

Here are some:

Triturus dobrogicus
Triturus carnifex
Triturus karelinii
C. ensicauda
C. pyrrhogaster
Tylototriton verrucosus
Ichthyosaura alpestris
Pleurodeles waltl
Axolotl

All of them are easy to keep and often sold as CB...

I'll be the most straigh and direct here: Is there lack of inteligence, or there is too much inteligence to be able to agree with FACTS?
Seems like in a whole thread I only get to see Frog-eyes to hit in a Bullseye in the really really important factor...

I will pass to the epic quote:

So can a beginner GET CB salamanders? Often, no.

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Thank you God for people who see farther than their nose-line.

In fact I did advised Cynops orientalis to a Portuguese member here. You know why? Cause I live here. I can talk. I see the facts, the occurrences, I see all from here. All others can do is to judge, but it doesn't mean it will be a good judging or shall I advise him to go hunt Wc highly illegal and endanged newts who could cost him thousands of euros in fares not to mention they are highly fragmented and tiny distributed creatures worldwide. So is this a good judging? Or is it a good judging to talk Chinese with him and tell him to get CB newts that by a matter of fact he will not even know the smallest thing of what I am talking or were he could get it... Please, there are plenty C.orientalis dying in pet-shops worldwide, including in my country. Let them go for it and at least save them from death. If they are dying whatsoever at least let a newbie try. Once he understands he will no longer require and want such provenience animals. Thus again as a matter of fact when discovering the hobby he will eventually grow in knowledge and get to know what are CBs make its own contacts, purchase some of them and so on... As the hobby progresses... Is this so hard to think about? Isnt this way too obvious or only two people get to see the hole picture?

As a matter of warning,hope nobody takes this reply personally. This is only a anti-hypocrite pure reply.
All the best,
Jorge

eljorgo said:

In fact I did advised Cynops orientalis to a Portuguese member here. You know why? Cause I live here. I can talk. I see the facts, the occurrences, I see all from here.

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Jorge You are from Portugal, and which species do you keep? Please don't say that it is impossible to get some CB newts! All over Europe, including Portugal, you can get CB newts easily... They have found Caudata.org, so thats the best start to find some CB...

Please, there are plenty C.orientalis dying in pet-shops worldwide, including in my country. Let them go for it and at least save them from death. If they are dying whatsoever at least let a newbie try.

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You're right! Let them pay for sick animals and make sure that the petshops keep selling them! Way to go...

Once he understands he will no longer require and want such provenience animals. Thus again as a matter of fact when discovering the hobby he will eventually grow in knowledge and get to know what are CBs make its own contacts, purchase some of them and so on...

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If you would advise them to me, I would be furious afterwards because I asked for some good advise and you lead me straight into trouble. These people want to start in a good way so they ask advise before buying. Then at least give them good advise and be honost. If they do not take the advise, it's their problem...

FrogEyes - could you post some details of your H. orientalis mass-setup in another thread? It would be very interesting to see - how many animals are you working with?

Although I am aware (painfuly so) of the fact that H. orientalis is the most commonly offered species, is cheap and that CB animals are not so obviously (sometimes they are readily availabe, just finding out about them is hard; sometimes they are just not there) available, and that this is the reason that many people start with this species, I do not think that recommending them is the right thing to do. If a beginner has taken the trouble to post on a forum BEFORE buying pet shop newts, then bouncing them right back to the pet shop without giving them the information they asked for in the first place is not entirely ethical, in my opinion. Once a person is aware of the facts pertaining to WC imports (both practical, in terms of dealing with ill animals, and ethical, in terms of unsustainable harvest and terrible welfare), they can look for CB animals, choose to value individual welfare over the bigger picture (i.e. rescue newts from a shop) or to ignore them ('I want newts now and these are the easiest to get hold of, so I'll buy them anyway').

I think it is important to distinguish between 'good to begin with' in terms of easy to find (not what I think most people mean, as they are often drawn to the hobby by seeing H. orientais in pet shops) and 'good to begin with' in terms of a species that will be a good introduction to the hobby, with as few disadvantages (both to the keeper, the animals and to species survival in the wild) as possible. I believe that it is our job, as the informed section of the public, to ensure that people can get all the facts at once, rather than having to slowly piece it together through mistakes, regret and their own research.

The possibility of completely crippling WC markets by prodcing Cb animals is another debate, but it is not so difficult to let people know the facts on which to base their decision as to where to source animals. Once people realise that pet shop newts come from the wild under horrible conditions, not from a farm, like many other pets do (I am aware of the ethical problems behind rodent farms etc, but they are not so bad), they will at least consider getting CB animals. of those who don't, many will end up learning the hard way when their WC H. orientalis die. It would be a shame for people to think that that was how keeping any newts would be.

Anyway, my 2 cents there...sorry if I waffled a bit...

Chris

Stravoske and Chris have pretty much voiced my opinion.
I will only add that out of all european members of this forum, who have something else other than H.orientalis, the vast majority have purchased newts from breeders. I can´t think of a single user with more than one species that hasn´t had newts shipped to them, and of course the majority of those shippings are of CB animals from breeders.
If getting newts shipped to you was so difficult and only for a select few, the situation of the hobby in europe would be drastically different. But the truth is, it´s DEAD easy, and everyone takes adavantage of it once they become aware.
That´s why i´d rather make people aware of their possibilities, instead of telling them to go to the nearest pet-shop...