Fast moving stream leading to lake in Maryland

Martin21114 · Sep 5, 2011

I live right by a fast moving stream in Maryland that has crystal clear water and tons of fish, but I never see any amphibians. The stream ranges in depth from about an inch to a foot, with a couple of deeper (small, 2-3 feet deep) pools where there are waterfalls. the ares is surrounded by forest and home to LOTS of wildlife and i have seen hawks, raccoons, foxes, coyotes, deer, etc...

Our native amphibian species can be seen here:

Salamanders & Newts - Discover Maryland's Herps - Wildlife and Heritage Service - Maryland Department of Natural Resources

and include tiger, marbled, jefferson, spotted, dusky, eastern mud, northern red, 4-toed, green, and red-backed salamanders.

Despite hours of looking I have neither seen any of these salamanders, nor any toads, frogs, newts, tadpoles, etc....

Are these guys that rare now? Is this just the wrong habitat or time to be looking? which species am I most likely to find in and around a medium to fast stream? What about at the lake?

Azhael · Sep 5, 2011

This is hypothetical, but the problem might be the fish. Caudates generally avoid inhabiting waters that have fish. That doesn´t solve the mistery of the terrestrial species, but may be part of the problem. It could also be that your area has suffered a local extintion for a variety of reasons, which would be most unfortunate, but it´s unlikely.
Maybe the habitat is not as good as it should be?

I´d love to see pictures if you have any.

FrogEyes · Sep 5, 2011

I can think of many examples of salamanders co-occuring with fishes. Odds are that the habitat is either unsuitable, they've been extirpated from the area, or you haven't searched the right places and times often enough. You'll have best success along primary and secondary streams, at springheads and seepages. Once the stream becomes broader, deeper, and more permanent, salamander diversity and numbers decline.

warrior · Sep 5, 2011

Could be a few reasons like mentioned the fish may be the problem also have you looked under objects around or in the stream like rocks, logs, any cover for an amphibian to be under? Is this place in the city or country, if in the city a lot of amphibians are disturbed by new developments by the city. Do these streams have plants in them and/or moss, a lot of amphibians need plants to lay eggs on. You can try looking at night with a flashlight especially during or after a rain. Hopefully you find some there.

Martin21114 · Sep 5, 2011

I'll try to take and post some pictures tomorrow. To my untrained eye it looks like the prefect habitat with lots of variety.

Martin21114 · Sep 6, 2011

I took a short walk around the area and took some photos. I made a gallery here:

http://www.caudata.org/forum/members/martin21114-albums-trails-howard-county-maryland.html

here's a sample:

Azhael · Sep 6, 2011

It looks like the stream and the banks have been remodeled or modified recently. That may very well be the cause of the lack of amphibians. I remember a stream near my grandparent´s house which used to contain a variety of amphibians, like B.bufo, R.temporaria, S.salamandra, L.vulgaris, etc, plus plenty of "rare" native species like kingfishers, eels, salmon, trout, or desman, for example, lost almost all of it´s vertebrate inhabitants after a large part of the banks of the stream were remodeled.

PS: I spent a very significant part of my childhood with my feet in those waters so when i saw the damage i took it badly. It would have been a perfect moment for some rain, lightning and a camera filming from above while i screamed "NooooOOOOOoooooo....".

Martin21114 · Sep 6, 2011

I was afraid of that. They just spent 3 million dollars to totally rebuild the whole area. I guess long term it will be good because the specifically created marshes, pools, deadwood gardens, etc... it just sucks that they killed everything doing it going ape-$#%^ with a bunch of bulldozers and backhoes.

I'm in the process of changing my garden from a bunch of barren mulch and runoff to a habitat in which i hope to eventually house and breed some local species to hopefully wander off and repopulate the area a bit. I guess I'm getting old and nerdy, but I don't want to talk about amphibians one day like we do dinosaurs. So i try to do little project like this when I can. When I got a few power tools for Christmas I decided to learn some woodworking skills by making bat houses and squirrel nesting boxes lol.

Martin21114 · Sep 6, 2011

how long do you think it will take for it to recover from surgery, month, years, decades?

rethgar · Sep 6, 2011

Martin21114 said:
how long do you think it will take for it to recover from surgery, month, years, decades?

Depends on a variety of things. The overall impacts during the worked and the suitability of adjacent habitats. Sometimes it it takes no longer than a season sometime much much longer. If they carried out the work at entirely the wrong time like during breeding then it could have really badly impacted populations.

eljorgo · Sep 6, 2011

I live right by a fast moving stream in Maryland

Is that what an usually fast moving stream looks like?
Quite strange it looks rather a stagnant pond.

We are used to other kind of fast flowing ones over here; here's a sample:

Cheers,

Martin21114 · Sep 6, 2011

That looks beautiful Eljorgo. The current in the stream by me isn't real strong, but it is steady. It's fed by stormdrains so when there is a heavy rain it can raise over a foot and flows much faster.

ozarkhellbender · Sep 6, 2011

Martin21114 said:
and include tiger, marbled, jefferson, spotted, dusky, eastern mud, northern red, 4-toed, green, and red-backed salamanders.

Tiger, Jefferson's, Marbled, Spotted, Eastern Mud, and Northern Red salamanders all spend most of the year either burrowed just below the surface or deep in the mud, especially the first 5 species there. The habitat in the pictures doesn't look ideal for Green salamanders. You should be able to find 4-toed and Red-backed salamanders, but since the habitat has been recently altered, that is why you are having a hard time finding them.

If you are looking for Ambystomids (Tiger, Jefferson's Marbled, and Spotted) I would looked farther away from the stream back in the more heavily wooded areas. Your best time to see them is in the breeding season when they migrate to ponds.

tclipse · Sep 6, 2011

Looks very similar to what we have here in northern VA... next spring, check near that stream and there might be some vernal pools and/or seasonal swamps nearby, that will probably be your best bet from what I've seen around here. Also, go through the stream and turn some rocks, if there are salamanders in the area you might have luck finding some larvae.

Other than eastern newts and P. cinereus, I haven't seen any other species in numbers, but they are definitely here... seen a few spotted & marbled sals around over the years as well as larvae of a few other species (never ID'ed them as I didn't know about this website back then

).

Martin21114 · Sep 7, 2011

We had a lot of rain the past 2 days, so when I went out to walk today I notice the water level was up about 4-5 feet, i have never seen it that high. One of the bridges was covered in debris from being underwater. While walking around I saw 2 toads, they were either southern or american toads, it was hard to tell because I didnt have my light with me.

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