Tiger Salamanders in Pennsylvania

I've heard some conflicting reports about Tiger Salamanders (A. tigrinum) being found in PA. As of right now, I see no restrictions on the PA Fish and Boat Commission's Reg. List for them. Does anyone know if they are up for addition for NON-possession? And if they are eventually put up: with proper documentation are they then legal to keep with some sort of 'grandfather' clause. Thanks!

According to the Pennsylvania Fish and Boat Commission, A. tigrinum are considered 'extirpated', or extinct within the state limits. This likely means that catching one within the state would be of great interest to authorities, and should be reported. If you do catch one, it would probably be considered a protected specimen and they would likely want you to hand it over.

Now POSSESSION of a species that is extirpated within a state is a fuzzy topic. Re-introduction of an extirpated species is usually done with extreme care, not to introduce a population that is weak or potentially infected with pathogens. So release of such a creature would be a no-no.

I really suggest you shoot them an email about it and find out for yourself. The best info I found was at http://fishandboat.com/rulemakings/notices/2010_02_02_native.pdf

Any releases are required to have a wildlifer rehabilitation permit and meet with the approval of the various departments. Currently the regulations prohibit housing amphibians in such a way that thier offspring or pathogens can be released to the enviroment.

As Cassie noted above, they are considered extirpated so they can be owned in the state.

Ed

Ed said:

As Cassie noted above, they are considered extirpated so they can be owned in the state.

Ed

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That is incorrect. According to Katie Huber from Pa Fish and Boat they are considered a native Pa. species and are illegal to posses in Pa. Part of their reasoning is their may be a remnant population that could be put at risk by accidental release of tiger salamanders from another state. It is legal to have a tiger salamander in Pa. if you have proof you had it before Jan 1, 2007 and you apply for a special native species permit.

From: Huber, Kathryn <kahuber@state.pa.us>
To: 'wwsgrey7399ww@aol.com' <wwsgrey7399ww@aol.com>
Cc: Urban, Chris <curban@state.pa.us>
Sent: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:37 am
Subject: RE: Message to PFBC About Amphibians and Reptiles
Ms. Tucker,
Your question regarding owning an Ambystoma tigrinum of any subspecies in Pennsylvania was recently forwarded to me. The Fish and Boat Commission is the state agency in Pennsylvania that has the legal mandate to protect, conserve, and manage native reptiles and amphibians occurring in Pennsylvania. Our Natural Diversity Section staff handles questions and issues pertaining to reptiles and amphibians.
The tiger salamander, a native species to Pennsylvania, is now considered extirpated (no longer occurs in the state). However, according to section 79.10 of the Pennsylvania Code in reference to reptiles and amphibians, "(a) It is unlawful to transport or import into or within this Commonwealth a native species from another jurisdiction. (b) It is unlawful to receive a native species that was transported or imported into or within this Commonwealth from another jurisdiction." Therefore, it is not lawful for anyone in Pennsylvania to own any subspecies of the Tiger Salamander collected or purchased from another jurisdiction (i.e. another state).
The reptile and amphibian regulations were updated and went into effect on January 1, 2007. If you live in Pennsylvania, and have proof that you had the animal prior to this date, you could legally possess the animal with a special native species permit. Please let me know if this scenario applies to you, and I can provide you with an application for this permit.
I hope you have found this information helpful. Feel free to contact me with any other questions you may have. Thank you again for your interest in Pennsylvania's reptiles and amphibians.
Sincerely,
Katie Huber
Wildlife and Fisheries Biologist Aide
PA Fish and Boat Commission
Natural Diversity Section
450 Robinson Lane
Bellefonte, PA 16823
814-359-5154
kahuber@state.pa.us

=

Ah... thanks so much folks. I didn't want to transgress any laws. I appreciate the speedy and thorough replies. Thanks again, one and all.

Hi Michael,

Thanks for the correction. My information was based on thier original research and convesatons in looking to declare it extirpated. I had several conversations with them when they contacted the zoo looking for reported sightings. Your information in writing clearly corrects what I was told.
Ed

Sounds like Axolotls should be illegal in PA. too since they are after all just Tiger Salamanders.

Ed I don't think anyone has seen a Tiger Salamander in PA. in over 30 years. They were only ever recorded in one county of the state (Chester) that was heavily developed in the 60's and 70's. If they were ever really here at all. The PA fish commission use to beleive that Eastern Kingsnakes were native to PA. I even have an old State reptile poster with it on it. They however have recently changed there mind saying that the one specimen that was found over 50 years ago was just a escaped pet. So alot those old records and siteings seem pretty useless to me.

New Jersey has has some success building new vernal ponds and releaseing Tiger Salamander eggs into them creating new poplulations. From what I have been reading they are planning to to this at the old Ponderlodge property in Cape May, NJ. There were plans there to create several new vernal pools and wet land enhancment at other ponds at the site. I'm sure some egg planting will be in the works there too.

Axolotls aren't tiger salamanders.

I'm not real current on taxonomy but by what the fish and boat people told me A. mavortium would be legal if the taxonomy changed from A. tigrinum mavortium to A. mavortium. I'm not sure if mavortium was switched to species level or not.

Ambystoma mavortium was raised to a full species in 1996, and has generally been treated as such since 1998.

It would be unusual for laws to so easily follow taxonomy, since it has the effect of defeating the original purpose of the law. IE, since the animals themselves don't change, why were they illegal to begin with, if all you have to do to make them legal is change the name? That's a rhetorical question - the reason is that no-one wanted to include subspecies in law, although I bet if you looked, you'd find at least one subspecies included, either explicitly by trinomial, or implicitly by using a subspecies common name.

Axolotls aren't tiger salamanders.

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Not in name, but they are phylogenetically. Most Mexican Ambystoma are more closely related to A.mavortium than any are to A.tigrinum, and all are closer to A.mavortium and A.tigrinum than any are to A.californiense. Which means that all Mexican Ambystoma are just as much "tiger" salamanders as anything called such in the USA.

Keeping in touch with both academic and government experts is a great way to give them feedback on these laws. The guidelines are a worthwhile safety measure to make certain any repopulated species is healthy and safe to bring things back into normal gear. You can imagine a breeding population that originated from 'stock' that is not at it's healthiest, physically or genetically, being quite an ecological disaster. I've heard of a few re-population efforts done with other extirpated species, but they were done with great care and over a course of more than a decade.

It's hard to expect the officials to make exceptions for those of us that are responsible about both the care and containment of our captive animals. Working with the Minnnesota DNR, I can attest to the challenges these officials face in processing requests, permits and other paperwork. Getting a permit for survey collecting a new population of endangered Chilostigma itascae caddisflies took quite a long time, though wasn't so problematic since they only emerge for a couple months in late winter.

I'm extremely happy to see these kinds of discussions taking place on forums such as these. It does my heart good to know that you guys are so interested and involved in efforts of conservation and ethics.

BillYannone said:

Ed I don't think anyone has seen a Tiger Salamander in PA. in over 30 years. They were only ever recorded in one county of the state (Chester) that was heavily developed in the 60's and 70's. If they were ever really here at all. The PA fish commission use to beleive that Eastern Kingsnakes were native to PA. I even have an old State reptile poster with it on it. They however have recently changed there mind saying that the one specimen that was found over 50 years ago was just a escaped pet. So alot those old records and siteings seem pretty useless to me.

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Hi Bill,

I was aware that they hadn't been seen in decades. During thier review they contacted the Philadelphia Zoo (and myself since I was working there taking care of the amphibian collection), so I had several conversations with the Fish and Boat people. They were checking with us, since we often have animals brought to the Zoo for identification. There were rumors of a colony outside of Chester but no one to my knowledge had ever seen it.

Ed

Ambystoma has only been around since the end of the last ice age 10,000 years ago. All descending from one species. They may be racing down the road of evolution but that trip for being a species hasn't ended. Ambystoma make Darwin's finches look like a 8th grade science fair project. You don't see human/ chimp hybrids. No matter what you thought you saw hunting or at the mall. That is because we are a species. A. mexicanium has been crossed with albino A. marvortium and A. andersoni. Giving us viable and fertile offspring. I say its because they are not what I'm going to call a full species but just a subspecies of A. marvortium. I think they could be even called A. mavortium mexicanium or maybe A. velasci mexicanium. I can't see any reason for not calling them a Tiger Salamander. The States of NJ and CA think so too!!!!!

This might shed more light on the subject if anyone can gett their hands on it Correlations of Life-History and Distributional-Range Variation with Salamander Diversification Rates: Evidence for Species Selection

Well the published reason for New Jersey is because they don't think field agents can distinguish larval Eastern Tiger salamanders from all other larval caudates. Your not supposed to have any larval caudates. See http://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/pdf/xotic_petshop_app.pdf...

Ed