Neurergus kaiseri update 2012

Well folks it has been a long while, but here are some updates on my kaiseri breeding program.

1. No I am not currently selling or planning to sell adults, juvies, eggs or anything else for the time being.

2. After very nearly losing the colony to low male numbers and a few male deaths I have completely recovered thanks to some juveniles from the original batches reaching sexual maturity and an emergency breeder trade.

3. Currently I have over 450 individuals at various ages all being raised up with the intent of establishing a very stable production colony.

4. I have perfected my husbandry techniques to the point I am no longer dependent on local seasonal weather. This has been one of my ultimate goals since the beginning. In fact I have better luck breeding kaiseri than I do axolotls or European newts.

5. I am not currently able to share my complete techniques and findings just yet as this encompasses a large portion of my thesis, which I am entering the closing stages of this semester.I am utterly exhausted with research and compiling data. Somehow I have to take a few years worth of daily data and digest it down to a useable format...and then write the paper without it remaining in the very scary looking near book format it is in right now.




The main point for this post however concerns temperatures. I have been able to replicate a compressed temperature cycling program based on temperature and water levels. By following this one can successfully get viable eggs envy 90 days.Yuo end up with an average clutch size of 58 eggs per laying by this method.

All of my ten gallon breeding tanks are in a six inch deep custom built trough that utilizes a modified computer CPU water cooler to circulate chilled water to maintain cold water temps without dropping air temps to significantly.
For the basic run down is this:

Month one: Terrestrial adults (males kept separately and individually)

Add water to the set-ups previously described in my previous reports at the rate of one inch per week. Air temps 72-78F. Water temps 68-70F. As water level goes up, temperature is dropped 3 degrees within 48 hours. Feed every other day as normal gradually increasing to daily the final week.12/12 lighting cycle slowly shifted to 8/16 cycle.

Month Two: Breeding and eggs

By this time the tanks are 50% full of water @ 55-60F. Females are all showing extended cloaca. Males are introduced. Feeding is kept daily, just before the lights go out. Eggs usually show up by day 21. Adults are removed and kept terrestrially back on 12/12 lighting. Adult temps brought back up to previous ranges. Daphnia, rotifers, moina, and macroinfusoria introduced to tank. Hatch and rear eggs as normal, maximum temp 70F until adult coloration forms, then slowly drop water depth to one inch. Then allow water to maintain ambient temperature and evaporate as juveniles enter terrestrial stage. rear terrestrial as one would any other small newt. (I have reared some aquatically, but I have replicated data that links lower mortality in terrestrial juveniles)

Month three: Prepping adults for next breeding cycle

Feed heavily daily with terrestrial isopods, crickets and similar small LIVE insects. Keep on 12/12 lighting. Keep males separately from each other and females. Allow air temperatures to reach 75-78F. Only provide water in a small dish under a hide.

At end of 30 day cycle, return to month one plan or wait an additional month for larger egg yields.(the longer you wait between restarting the cycle, the larger the clutch of viable eggs my replicated data shows) I usually wait another 90 days as I prefer 150-225 count clutches.


I am glad I no longer have to count eggs anymore. Fishing out eggs one at a time with a turkey baster becomes painful somewhere around halfway through the first of ten tanks...


This is intended as sort of a teaser. Next summer I will make the completed thesis available.

Very nice job! I look forward to seeing your thesis and good luck writing it up. It took me nearly 10 months to compile all my information into one succinct format

Fantastic work! I am looking forward to seeing the finished thesis.

Do you not use earthworms as terrestrial food at all?

C

Sounds like quite a study with a lot of mouths to feed! 450 makes my group of 15 or so seem insignificant.

Without wanting to spoil the surprise of the full thesis could I ask what the purpose of the short cycle is? Is the yearly egg yield higher with mini seasons rather than in one season? I only ask because it seems like quite an unnatural approach for a species that, like all other newts, breed only once a year after a period of cooling. Also interesting is the idea of letting water evaporate. In my experience kaiseri morphs just crawl out of the water when they are ready without the need for evaporation. Is this something you know they experience in the wild or do you feel this benefits them in some way?

Thanks!

In 3 months you will have more kaiser newts than Iran.

Very cool that you've been so successful with this species. Are you concerned about inbreeding, however?

Coastal Groovin said:

In 3 months you will have more kaiser newts than Iran.

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Not if the new population estimates are correct Didn't you hear? Someone went and counted them and surprisingly had different results from the previous CITES approved method of sticking one's finger in the air.

http://www.caudata.org/forum/f1173-...eurergus/85358-new-article-about-kaiseri.html

I believe that N. microspilotus is possibly in more trouble, with it's habitat nearer to and more degraded by human settlement...

You know, it always made me wonder just who they had counting them. No offense intended to anyone, but you really need to get some rock flippers and spelunkers out there to do it right. After one of my recent internships, I found that even the pros in the field do not really know how to find wild caudates. (I got a lot of free beers over that last month.)


No, I do not use earthworms at all with the adults. My own research has shown that in the wild adults will primary feed on insects, insect larvae, and freshwater arthropods. Oddly, my adults prefer these foods of earthworms. This has worked out well for me as our current drought conditions make a supply of earthworms difficult.

Additionally I live in one of the if not the highest concentration of atrazine use in North America. It contaminates everything here at 3 to 8 times the levels needed for feminization, something I had significant issues with with these and other species early on. I found out here through careful testing that a good portion of the earthworms both local and imported are contaminated to some degree. While I do not feel this is an issue for normal home husbandry, in the interest of science I have had to take some pretty crazy steps to eliminate contamination for this project. (I have other experiments ongoing involving atrazine and Ambystomids/ Triturus complex)

I'd be very interested in seeing some pics of your tanks and animals :rolley

Mark said:

Sounds like quite a study with a lot of mouths to feed! 450 makes my group of 15 or so seem insignificant.

Without wanting to spoil the surprise of the full thesis could I ask what the purpose of the short cycle is? Is the yearly egg yield higher with mini seasons rather than in one season? I only ask because it seems like quite an unnatural approach for a species that, like all other newts, breed only once a year after a period of cooling. Also interesting is the idea of letting water evaporate. In my experience kaiseri morphs just crawl out of the water when they are ready without the need for evaporation. Is this something you know they experience in the wild or do you feel this benefits them in some way?

Thanks!

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The short cycle has been developed for multiple reasons:

1. I'm a really poor uni student now, I have time on my hands and no budget at all.
2. I was curious about viable clutch size versus optimal breeding conditions as it appears regular mass breeding was still pretty touch and go for most of us, self included
3. I needed more specimens for my research of all stages of development.
4. I just wanted to see if I could make it happen by modifying my own "standard" husbandry techniques
5. It really, really makes my wife angry that I knocked out the remaining walls of the critter room to take over the entire basement in the interest of "science" and this was my excuse...( In a whiney voice: But Angelita, it is for my thesis!!!)
6. I hope that by developing multiple techniques and cycles, my data may be used as a basis for other endangered amphibian populations world wide in the interest of conservation.

With the evaporation method, I started doing this as I discovered better than 70% of juveniles will remain aquatic if given the chance. While I am still collecting data on the phenomena, currently it appears that aquatic morphs have a higher mortality rate than terrestrial.(nearly 85% as of last week) Couple that with a statistical trend showing if given the choice, the juveniles never fully become terrestrial and perhaps you can see the method to my madness. The hypothesis on this involves the usual convoluted ramblings linking immunological development versus growth rate. To date NONE of my fully aquatic raised adult F1, F2, or F2.5 animals have ever come into breeding condition, no matter the conditions set. However, these results are not valid yet as the test group and control groups are statistically too small and not over a long enough period to make proper inferences. They are bigger faster, but do not appear sexually mature.By comparison, terrestrially cycled individuals have bred multiple times from the same groups.

Evaporation loss of standing water is a significant part of their life cycle in the wild, as is extremely high surface ground temperatures during the summer months and drastic changes in ambient humidity. My research has shown that in the wild it is highly likely that increased temperature coupled with loss of standing water is the trigger for the start of the hormonal pre-reproductive cycle. Again, a good portion of this is ongoing research, so none of this should be taken as canon. As I cannot go to Iran and quantify environmental data myself, or correspond legally with folks on the ground there to get the data I need.

I am still forced to base my data of historical documentation of "sketchy" value and by comparing conditions from the High Desert of Utah which is environmentally and ecologically nearly identical. (Getting Utah data is easy, Getting Zagros data is not for an American. Thanks religion and politics! If there was anyway I could go to the Iran-Iraq border zone legally without getting "dissapeared" or losing my US citizenship, believe me, I would jump on it.

This all links to diet, body weight, clutch size and frequency too. By using the "fast cycle" for some of my specimens, I will be able to construct valid comparison of mortality maturity rates and overall lifespan versus, what I think of as my "standard" methods.

Much of this has to do with thee successful replication of results from my previous breeding data.


You do not want to know how much I got right and how much I got wrong. But, in research ANY result is a result and must be replicated and quantified multiple times in my way of thinking.

I wish I could overcome the 2 year to maturity part of the cycle though. Thank the FSM I have a ton of other projects and school to keep me busy during the downtimes.

jasper408 said:

Very cool that you've been so successful with this species. Are you concerned about inbreeding, however?

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Inbreeding is not an issue with caudates in general. Even if it is proven to be true at some point in the future, I have made some trades, exchanges, and purchases that ensure there is no issue for at least ten years with this colony.

SludgeMunkey said:

Inbreeding is not an issue with caudates in general. Even if it is proven to be true at some point in the future, I have made some trades, exchanges, and purchases that ensure there is no issue for at least ten years with this colony.

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Inbreeding in general is a hot topic that people don't seem to agree on, but either way, that sounds great. Looking forward to seeing the progress.

SludgeMunkey said:

You know, it always made me wonder just who they had counting them. No offense intended to anyone, but you really need to get some rock flippers and spelunkers out there to do it right. After one of my recent internships, I found that even the pros in the field do not really know how to find wild caudates. (I got a lot of free beers over that last month.)

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Same author was involved in both estimations.

As I posted in a related thread, I've seen a number of "studies" in which drastically low population estimates have been made, and I know I could probably find 10% of their entire estimate in a single locality in a few minutes. At least part of the problem is overly cautious survey methods, in which only adult animals, active on the surface, at certain hours under certain weather conditions are counted. If they'd turn a few rocks, change seasons or weather, etc, estimates would increase by several orders of magnitude in many cases.

FrogEyes said:

Same author was involved in both estimations.

As I posted in a related thread, I've seen a number of "studies" in which drastically low population estimates have been made, and I know I could probably find 10% of their entire estimate in a single locality in a few minutes. At least part of the problem is overly cautious survey methods, in which only adult animals, active on the surface, at certain hours under certain weather conditions are counted. If they'd turn a few rocks, change seasons or weather, etc, estimates would increase by several orders of magnitude in many cases.

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This was my experience. One site was listed as "no specimens evident" because we found no adults. I had to cuss and yell to get anyone to look at the hundred plus large larvae just at the edge of the pond. It took some significant arguing, but the report was changed to "no adults evident" We were able to net and count over 600 individual in a four hour period before we decided to go for beer.

Hi
I am now looking to a growth study on kaiseri. Nothing as extreme as your study but over the next year for my dissertation.

Sean90 said:

Hi
I am now looking to a growth study on kaiseri. Nothing as extreme as your study but over the next year for my dissertation.

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I wish you luck!
If you would like to exchange data in the future, let me know.

SludgeMunkey said:

To date NONE of my fully aquatic raised adult F1, F2, or F2.5 animals have ever come into breeding condition, no matter the conditions set.

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I keep all my N. kaiseri aquatically and they are proving much easier to maintain in good condition in this manner. My breeding pair (obtained as tiny juveniles) have spawned each year for the last two years since they became adult. However, my first F1s from this pair are due to start breeding hopefully this coming new year. They have been aquatic since they metamorphosed two years ago and are in superb condition. This year's youngsters likewise.
My adults happily spawn in a plastic tub from B&Q half filled with soft tap water. The female meticulously lays her eggs in the leaf axils of Elodea, but nowhere else. There is a flat piece of expanded polystyrene for them to leave the water if they wish, but they never do. They are fed on frozen foods, largely brine shrimp (enhances the colours in juveniles dramatically), bloodworm and Gammarus. They occasionally get an earthworm or two but not often. John Skillcorn
They are kept cool - around 18 Celsius - during November and December in an unheated room in my house, and in both years have begun to produce eggs in late December, continuing for a couple of months. I have seen some very elaborate breeding set-ups on the internet, with plants, running waterfalls etc. Mine is simplicity itself. Maybe I've just been lucky, but we'll see this coming new year.

So basically that defeats the assumption that they will not reproduce if not kept on land for some time?

erik3333 said:

So basically that defeats the assumption that they will not reproduce if not kept on land for some time?

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No assumptions made on my part, only replicated data over multiple cycles. In fact my data and the anecdotal data of others leans away from keeping them fully aquatic if annual breeding is desired.