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Bloated P.waltl and axolotl

xxianxx

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I have some amphibians in an outside shed, their tank surface temps dropped down to 6c last week having been around 10c for the past month. I had reducing their feeding to once a week, they appeared healthy though less active than usual. Since last week I have noticed some have developed bloat, mild in two of my four axolotls more severe in all seven of my adult P.waltl . I am assuming that the low temps has stopped (or at least slowed) their digestive system and the food has started to rot in the gut causing a build up of gas, it is only the abdominal area that is bloated, their limbs are unaffected, they can stay at the bottom of the tank but are spending their time floating at the surface. I bought the two axolotls inside the house and warmed them to 14c and after several days the bloat appears to be subsiding. I was concerned with the effect of a temp increase on the P.waltls bloat as they are in a more bloated condition and a warmer temp might make the gasses expand , I selected the one with the least amount of bloat as a guinea pig and raised his tank temp to 14 c , his condition appears to have worsened, as have the adults still in my shed which is now at 10c as the weather has warmed slightly. I have tried to contact local vets to find an amphibian specialist but there is non local to me. I did read that ringers solution may be of possible use and have stocked up on it in case I cant find it over the holiday period. Could anyone please advise me of its use or possible other treatments as I do not think that these guys will survive if left untreated. Thanks.
 

xxianxx

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It may be of use to know that twelve of my juvenile P.waltl are in my shed to, they are 3"-5" and all fully morphed. I have not been feeding them as they are in a plant/daphnia tub which is loaded with daphnia, snails,cyclops, tubifex (i think) and blackworms which have escaped from my blackworm colony (yes I am in the UK and breeding blackworm lol), the lower food volume that they are consuming has not caused any bloat, they look healthy but are showing lower activity levels due to the temp. Before I exposed my P.waltl to these low temps I did check with several keepers who are experienced with keeping amphibians at low temps and was assured they would be ok , I think the problem is the purely volume of food i was feeding them , their digestive system was simply were not able to cope with the actual volume of food.
 

Azhael

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I´m not sure what the problem might be, those temps are perfectly tolerated by this spècies and they continue to feed in those conditions, so it may be what you say about them being too full to begin with. It is strange that all 7 are displaying the same symptoms. I don´t really have any useful advice except perhaps to begin treating with the ringers solution and moderate the feeding in the future.
 

xxianxx

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How long should I leave the P.waltl in the ringers solution ? I will trial the one in the house first to see if there is a favourable outcome. Thanks.
 

John

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Responding at you request Ian. Definitely looks like bloat. I think pretty much everything "we" know about bloat is detailed on Caudata Culture. I've actually never had to treat this myself so I'll defer to CC.
 

xxianxx

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Thanks guys, I appreciate you viewing the thread, I am trialing my male p.waltl with the ringers solution, hope fully it will work. The increase in temp seems to have improved my axolotls condition , they appear to be getting ready to breed, the female was allready gravid. The waltl however are now in a worse condition, which seems to be exacerbated by the temp increase. As no specialist vet is available to me can any one link me to a site with advice on how to lance their stomach to release the gas pressure , this is a last resort prior to euthenasia and is not something I would choose to do. I can find no treatment for bloat caused by low temp over feeding and am absolutely at a loss on how to teat them if the ringers fails to work.
 

jewett

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I would not lance the abdomen but rather try releasing pressure with a fine gauge needle. I feel this would be less risky and something any vet should be willing to do. If liquid (vs air) is released, I would request the vet to culture it, as a culture may help with a diagnoses and a better understanding of any disease process. Might as well try and learn as much as you can from such a lousy experience, right?

If you decide to try and aspirate at home, I would use nothing bigger than a 22g needle, 24g more preferable. I would also try to "candle" the newt to get an idea of where organs are (if they have been rearranged from the bloating) to help avoid sticking something vital.

Sorry I can't suggest anything more. Best of luck and hope things turn out well.

Heather
 

herpvet

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Thanks guys, I appreciate you viewing the thread, I am trialing my male p.waltl with the ringers solution, hope fully it will work. The increase in temp seems to have improved my axolotls condition , they appear to be getting ready to breed, the female was allready gravid. The waltl however are now in a worse condition, which seems to be exacerbated by the temp increase. As no specialist vet is available to me can any one link me to a site with advice on how to lance their stomach to release the gas pressure , this is a last resort prior to euthenasia and is not something I would choose to do. I can find no treatment for bloat caused by low temp over feeding and am absolutely at a loss on how to teat them if the ringers fails to work.

Hi,

Although no specialist vet is available, can you find one willing to work with a more experienced vet? There's an obvious limit to the diagnostic and treatment options without this.

It depends a bit on clinical findings, of course, but potentially radiographs would be very useful (particularly gas vs liquid, for example, and possibly where it is). Excess gas in the gut is a different thing from "classical" bloat (which is itself ill-defined, but usually used for excess fluid in the body cavity). And worth pointing out that bloat, almost however you use the term, is NOT a diagnosis - it is a sign. Excess fluid can be associated with liver problems, kidney problems, mycobacterial infection, bacterial infection, fungal infection, tumours, etc, etc, etc.

With or without those results, most potentially useful treatments would also have to come from a vet (anti-inflammatories, antimicrobial drugs). The ringers solution should help fluid balance, but a hyperosmotic (more concentrated than the newt's body fluid) solution may be necessary, and this should really only be done with close supervision. Physical drainage can be necessary, and is often beneficial in severe cases in my experience, but should be accompanied by covering drugs (probably antibiotics against infection, and anti-inflammatories to reduce inflammation and pain for the animal).

So have to say I would really try to find a vet willing to work with you on this and consult a more experienced colleague if not confident with amphibs.

With regards to the cause, it certainly sounds like something environmental. Just a query - was that temp with a maximum-minimum thermometer? 6 C shouldn't be a problem (unless sudden dramatic drop), but if that's based on you reading a thermometer during waking hours, the temperature at (say) 4 am on the cold nights recently could have been significantly, and potentially dangerously, lower. You really need to use a max-min thermometer, to see how low it gets (apologies if you already have one).

Hope you can get them sorted out.
 

xxianxx

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Hi,

.

With regards to the cause, it certainly sounds like something environmental. Just a query - was that temp with a maximum-minimum thermometer? 6 C shouldn't be a problem (unless sudden dramatic drop), but if that's based on you reading a thermometer during waking hours, the temperature at (say) 4 am on the cold nights recently could have been significantly, and potentially dangerously, lower. You really need to use a max-min thermometer, to see how low it gets (apologies if you already have one).

Hope you can get them sorted out.

My shed is fully insulated with 3" polystyrene and a double glazed window, it is effected by seasonal temp variations but is not subject to large day/night temp swings. I work irregular hours and am also suffer bouts of insomnia so I spend as much time in my amphibian shed at night as the day so have monitored the temp at various times. The night the tanks dropped to 6c it was -2c outside, the lowest temp I had decided to tolerate in my shed was 5c and will be fitting a space heater to keep the temp from falling any lower than that. The tanks are now at 9c-10c and I will be treating six of the waltl in there with ringers and the house waltl has allready started his treatment. Thanks guys appreciate the help.
 

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I can only give limited advice on this problem, my understanding is if the problem is fluid not air in the gut then placing the animal in a solution with a higher salt concentration than its blood will draw the fluid out, the fluid being due to a failure of the kidneys to work properly.

Standard ringers solution is isotonic with blood, it will support the animal but not draw out much fluid, you need to use a higher concentration of salts to dehydrate the animal but too high is lethal.

Is your ringers merely salts, in which case use at about 10 g/litre ? blood is about the equivalent of 9g/litre salt.
The following are home made ringer like solutions without lactate.

1. sea water, artificial or natural, diluted one part sea water to three parts dechlorinated tap water. This will produce a mix with about 8.75g salt per litre. One part sea water to two parts tap water would be 11.6g salt per litre and probably a bit too hypertonic. You should probably start with a mix between these two.

My own stock mix is per litre :
Calcium chloride (dehumidifier granules) 4g
Table salt (cheap non iodised additive no harm) 40g
Lo Salt (cheap source of potassium, also adds sodium) 4g
magnesium sulphate(hydrated, epsom salts from chemist) 20g

(Dissolve ingredients in less than a litre and finally make up to that volume)
be careful with the calcium chloride, dissolve it first, and if you only use a little water it will get hot and it is caustic. then chuck in the other chlorides and only when they are all dissolved add the Epsom salts. If you add the sulphate before the calcium chloride then the calcium chloride becomes coated with calcium sulphate and does not dissolve.

I use twice the above quantities in plastic 2L pop bottles. The resulting mix is equivalent to 50g salt per litre and I use 25 ml of the solution per litre routinely -1.25g salt per litre

For bloat I would suggest using 180-200ml made up to a litre and see what happens, reducing the mix down to 150ml per litre, supportive but hypotonic, as soon as the animal looks ok.
 

xxianxx

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Four of the six waltl in my shed at 10c have cleared their bloat without treatment, I will be monitoring them closely ,the remaining two appear less bloated but will be given treatment with ringers inside the house. The house waltl at 14c is passing waste into his container , the blockage is...... maggots. I haven't fed the shed amphibians maggots for a couple of weeks so was very surprised to see undigested ones being passed, they appear to have been the cause of the impaction. I have been using maggots once a week on a number of my house amphibians, including juveniles with no problems other than a single P.waltl at 2" who died of bloat a few weeks ago, my only waltl fatality of the year from fifty hatchlings. The house animals (kept at around 20c) and fed maggots were
H.orientalis adults x6
A.mexicanum 2"-4" x 200
T.verrucosus (unmorphed/morphed) 2"-3" x 26
P.waltl (morphed) 2"-4" x 12 - now in my shed but not fed maggots whilst in there
Hybrid mexicanum/andersoni 4"-5" x 7- now in my shed but not fed maggots whilst in there
Other than the one waltl who died of bloat and three T.verrucosus who drowned inside a hollow ornament I have had no recent casualties. The maggots I used were greenbottle maggots (referred to as "pinkies" in the Uk) and are smaller than the commonly available bluebottle maggot (gozzer), I didn't prick them as is generally recommended as they are smaller. I have seen no undigested maggots passed in my juvy axolotl tank, they scoff everything they can see, though I have seen what I assumed (maybe wrongly) were uneaten maggots in the other tank, so possibly some were being passed uneaten. I think the problem with my adult P.waltl was a hard to digest food source and a slowed digestive system because of the cold, even juveniles of the same and other species were able to handle this food source at higher temps. The natural increase in tank temperature from a low of 6c to a high of 10c was enough to allow them to pass the blockage. The waltl in my house at 14c appeared to worsen in comparison to his tank mates in the shed as the temp was increased and though starting to pass his blockage with treatment he may have been better off at 10c. I now have three adult waltl in the house being treated with ringers solution, I will post their results at a latter date. Thanks to everyone for reading the thread, even if you had nothing to add.
 

xxianxx

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I can only give limited advice on this problem, my understanding is if the problem is fluid not air in the gut then placing the animal in a solution with a higher salt concentration than its blood will draw the fluid out, the fluid being due to a failure of the kidneys to work properly.

So bloat caused by an intestinal blockage would not be effected by ringers solution ? DOH ! spent £40 on 3 liters of it lol. I have treated african clawed frogs(X.laevis) for intestinal blockages with 10g of sea salt per liter on three seperate occasions when they have blown up from overeating (same stupid/greedy frog now hand fed to moitor food consumption), I always used salty water at 5c-10c after aclimatising her down from 20c, the treatment worked within 10 hours after 20 min baths several times a day and kept at 5c-10c during the treatment period. It must have been the cold water rather than the saline solution then that solved the bloating. Thanks for your response.
 

oceanblue

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I always used salty water at 5c-10c after aclimatising her down from 20c, the treatment worked within 10 hours after 20 min baths several times a day and kept at 5c-10c during the treatment period. It must have been the cold water rather than the saline solution then that solved the bloating. Thanks for your response.

Yes it looks like cold salty water is the equivalent of fridging rather than the salt solution working. It has always struck me as odd the fluid loaded creatures are described as bloat when most people associate this name with abdominal gas. Perhaps the medical term oedema (american edema) should be used.

Perhaps I should become a Ringers manufacturer: I investigated costs of a modified sea water mix for my luminescent bacteria cultures, several times more expensive than Ringers in basic ingredients and the calculations were about 5 pence per litre. Of course if you want it sterile for intravenous use on humans with particle filtering assurance of bacterial sterility and testing for pyrogens and careful quality control £40 / 3 Litres is a fair price.

Wishing all patients a speedy recovery!
 

jewett

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Very glad to hear that the outcome will not be as dire as it first sounded, Ian! Wishing all patients a speedy recovery indeed.

Heather
 

herpvet

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I can only give limited advice on this problem, my understanding is if the problem is fluid not air in the gut then placing the animal in a solution with a higher salt concentration than its blood will draw the fluid out, the fluid being due to a failure of the kidneys to work properly..

Hi,

Just wanted to comment on this, as it seems to be a very common misconception. It is true that ONE POSSIBLE reason for the fluid accumulation is kidney issues; but there are many possible others as I noted earlier (liver problems, heart/circulation problems, infections of various sorts, tumours, and others).

You should be aware of this, particularly given that while kidney failure carries a very poor prognosis (outlook) others may be treatable, and some effort at diagnostics should be made if possible.

Hope this helps,

Bruce.
 

Jan

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..........And worth pointing out that bloat, almost however you use the term, is NOT a diagnosis - it is a sign.
This should statement should be in capitalized letters - it cannot be overly emphasized. 'Blind' treatment choices often lead to further morbidity if not mortality......
 

xxianxx

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Thanks for the info guys. Just a couple of questions on after care and an update , four of my P.waltl seen to have cleared their blockage ,I have left them unfed for a day, they are quite active and begging for food, should I start feeding them straight away ? or has the bloat potentially caused damage the digestive system which would benefit from a short fast ? they were quite swollen and much worse than the axolotls . The axolotls cleared their mild bloat within a couple of days after being kept in the house at 14c , they are in an 80l tub with lots of floating plants, I have been feeding them one small dendro worm per day to see if they start to bloat again, which they haven't,they are actively searching for food and attacking my fingers when I move the plants around to check their condition. The tank was also full of spermatophores this morning, they will be moved from the tub and back to the shed when the eggs are laid or within the next week if the female doesn't bother. The remaining three P.waltl are still a bit bloated but slowly improving, they are still in my house, I discontinued the ringers solution treatment though if anyone qualified in animal care suggests I continue its use I will. Thanks again for the advice.
 
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